How can you get over emotional abuse if you still have to be in contact with who did it?

[meepthebeep]

Hi everyone,

I’ve been thinking a lot about my childhood and my relationship with my parents recently, although I’ve been having counselling on and off for years (first started in about 2014, I think).

Over a period of time, I’ve come to realise that our mum was emotionally abusive. She’d threaten to give us away to Barnardo’s, give us a huge amount of Christmas presents and then throw them away when we were ‘bad’, ruin days out and holidays by flying into a rage and then giving us the silent treatment for days. Some of my earliest childhood memories are of trailing around the house after her crying ‘mummy mummy’ and her ignoring me completely. I was scared of her, even though I didn’t really entirely understand that at the time, but I understood that my friends had approachable mums and mine was scary.

When we got older, she’d rage at us for totally normal, age-appropriate things, like buying contact lenses, having travel injections, or going on the pill aged 17-18. I went on a study abroad placement which I really, really struggled with, but she refused to speak to me unless it was ‘a good FaceTime’, i.e. I didn’t burden her with my feeling upset or lonely.

All of this (and lots lots lots more besides, but for the sake of brevity…) meant that when I got to my early twenties, I wanted less to do with her. That’s when I first started having counselling and started to realise our relationship wasn’t normal. We spent our childhood and adolescence dealing with her emotions and nobody had any regard for ours, even when we were tiny. My dad commented that when I was a baby, I was so funny and smiley, and then that changed ‘as soon as I was aware of outside influences’, which is his way of saying as soon as I was old enough to be scared of my mum, I suppose.

When I was at uni, she’d call me every day and wanted to put tracking apps on my ipad. If I didn’t answer, she’d call my then-boyfriend to find out where I was.

So, when I left uni and met my now DH, I tried to put in some boundaries, and that just made everything worse. I wanted to stay near my uni town and DH’s hometown, about an hour away from them. She emailed me to tell me that if she walked in front of a lorry tomorrow, I’d be sorry that I didn’t see her more. My dad said that she ‘needed the support of her eldest daughter’ and that mum was about to be diagnosed with MS. We then found out that she did have MS, but she’d been diagnosed for years, because my younger sister had accidentally found a hospital letter about it at home some four years prior to that.

I was summoned to their house where she proceeded to cry all over me and beg me to tell her I loved her, so I did, to which she replied ‘I know you hate me’. When I didn’t react to her crying (she wanted me to cry too), I was deemed ‘cold and unfeeling’.

In between all this, at family occasions she carried on being rude and cruel to me, making jokes about me in public and crowing ‘oh, she doesn’t like that!’ about me.

Since then, she seems to have mellowed, but she still makes awful comments and we’re expected to just get over it, because that’s jusy how is.

I had a miscarriage before Christmas, and she’s been messaging me things like ‘if you want a hug, just say and I’ll be there ❤️❤️❤️’ - but the background is that she has never been there for us, we have had to think only about her our entire lives.

On the total flipside from that message, she asked about a scan I’d had to have before having surgery for the miscarriage, and then said ‘so it had died then?’ My dad phoned me the day after surgery to ask me to keep my mum ‘in the picture’, and said she was only trying to help.

I feel so angry towards both of them for years and years of this. My mum for how she treated us, how she never reflected on her behaviour and never sought to change or make amends. She has never apologised, we’re just expected to be happy families now. And my dad for throwing us under the bus for years, and for still doing it now even weeks after my miscarriage.

We’re expected to see them and keep in touch. I can’t bear it when I see a message from her on my phone. Yesterday she told me that my dad was going to drop her at my house - told me, didn’t ask if I was free or if I wanted to see her. The very very cynical part of me thinks that she is going to try and use my current state and grief to try and get back ‘in’ where I’d put up some boundaries.

Sorry, this post is a huge long mess (even though I said I was going to try and keep it brief!). I’m just unpicking the damage she’s caused, finding my sense of self that I never ever had in childhood, and she is still there still behaving in the same way, and my dad is enabling her.

I’m going back to counselling next week after a break of a year or so. Sorry, I think I’m just venting. Does anyone have any advice? I don’t even really think I’m asking about going NC because I know I couldn’t go through with it and it’d make her much much worse.

There was so so much else. Stuff around privacy - we always had to have the bathroom door propped open when we were in the bath, including into our teens; she’d walk into our bedrooms unannounced; she’d find private things in my room and leave them out on my bed so I’d know that she’d seen them.

The extent of her ‘growing up’ talk to me was saying ‘don’t go upstairs’ when I had my first boyfriend (even though I was nowhere near ready to have sex and didn’t until much later), and she made me tell my (petrified) younger sister about periods - my sister had started and thought she was dying, and my mum brought her to me with my sister in tears, rather than talk to her myself. And yet mum would try to talk to me about Fifty Shades of Grey and things like that. It was just all warped and wrong.

I think I’m so so damaged by everything that happened - I didn’t feel all emotions until a couple of years ago, I just couldn’t articulate them, and now suddenly I have this huge anger within me.

I desperately want to heal but I don’t see how I can with them still behaving as they are - my mum still thinks she can say whatever she likes to us, and my dad will still offer us up to her to make things ‘easier’.

I wish I had a supportive family. I can’t bear the thought of her near me.

I think I’m just brain dumping, I’m sorry. I’ll take all of this to my counsellor next week.

It is NOT your fault your parents are like this and you certainly did not make them that way. What if anything do you know about their childhoods; that often gives clues. They had a choice when it came to you all and they chose the low road by doing similar as what was done to them. You do not owe them anything at all now, least of all a continuing relationship here because both have failed you and your siblings abjectly.

re your comment:
"I don’t even really think I’m asking about going NC because I know I couldn’t go through with it and it’d make her much much worse".

That is also your FOG talking here and you've also likely had the Special Training to put her first with your own needs and wants dead last. NC is precisely that and it is hard but in your circumstances certainly worth doing. How would NC make her much worse too if you no longer had any form of communication with either parent?. You do not have to tell them you would no longer have any contact with them. Such people do not change as you have and are too clearly seeing. You can and should ultimately withdraw entirely from them. You were not put on this earth to be their personal scapegoat/emotional punchbag/whipping boy for the rest of your days. You are now an adult with agency and you no longer need their approval; not that this was ever given to any of you anyway. You owe them nothing, least of all a relationship here because its not possible to have any form of relationship with people this disordered of thinking.

Women like your mother cannot do relationships so the men in their lives are often either like them or are otherwise discarded. Your weak willed father certainly is his wife's willing enabler, bystander and secondary abuser in their dysfunctional marriage.

You have FOG (fear obligation and guilt) in spades unsurprisingly as a result of them and their abuses and that needs therapy. I hope that counselling proves helpful to you next week; are you seeing a different counsellor to previously?. You will ultimately need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. If they are too toxic for you to deal with it will be the SAME deal for any children too so they will need to stay away from both your parents.

I would urge you to look at and post on the current December 2023 version of the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread. You will also get support there. Read the first post and the one below it; there are useful resources on there that you could read too.

Poor you, this sounds hard. I think the counselling is a good idea.
I also think trying to understand why she's the way she is might help. What was her childhood like? Only because it could be that she is doing this because she's damaged and incapable of parenting, rather than to deliberately hurt you.
Some of what you are saying resonates with me and that's how I've managed to maintain a relationship with my parents. Not to say it isn't annoying and upsetting but it's helped me to put hurtful behaviour in perspective and not let it get to me as much.

Have a look too at the Out of the FOG website; that could also be a useful resource to you.

Thank you both so much for replying. I’m really sorry for the pity party, I’m finding it harder than usual because of the MC, I think.

We don’t know much about mum’s childhood. Her own mum is a trained counsellor, and her parents separated when she was in her 20s. I think she’s definitely very emotionally immature and has been incapable of parenting us but now wants the pay-off of a ‘nice’ mother-daughter relationship.

My dad’s dad was incredibly strict with him. Dad openly told my sister that he left all the emotional stuff to my mum when we were little, because his mum had done the emotional stuff for him when he was growing up. But that’s despite the fact he knew what she was like, and saw evidence of her rage and silent treatment of us - he never ever stepped in.

She used to throw cups of tea across the room, and she’d shout at me to shut up if I cried because i was scared, for example.

AdamRyan

re your comment:
"I also think trying to understand why she's the way she is might help. What was her childhood like? Only because it could be that she is doing this because she's damaged and incapable of parenting, rather than to deliberately hurt you".

Its a reason, not an excuse. There is no justification or excuse for abuse and abuse at its heart is about power and control. These people had a choice when it came to the OP and her siblings and they chose to dole out what was also likely done to them as children.

I’ll have a look at out of the fog, @AttilaTheMeerkat, thank you.

It used to be my mum that I was angry with, but I’m really coming to see my dad’s role in this. I can’t imagine this happening in my house and not stepping in.

When I asked him once why he didn’t leave, he said he couldn’t because what would happen to the cats. Never mind his own children. He did a speech at my wedding about how much he loved me and fell in love with me as soon as I was born, and I just remember dissociating through the whole thing thinking, then why didn’t you help us? You can actually see in the photos I’ve glazed over.

Your posts are absolutely NOT a pity party. I have read many stories not too dissimilar to your own from other adults, who suffered and continue to suffer at the hands of toxic parents. Both parents here have failed you and your siblings abjectly.

You have a choice here re them now and I would urge you to over time drop the rope they hold out to you.

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

I think the counselling would be good to work through the barriers you want.

it doesn’t really matter what her childhood was like it’s a reason not an excuse. Yours wasn’t good and you wouldn’t treat a child as your mum treats you.

what stands out as well is that you say you are expected to see her, as though that is a legally binding obligation. It’s not. You don’t owe her anything, or your dad who facilitates your abuse. They are unkind to you. And you are seeing them - doing them a favour really - at a further cost to yourself.
i think it may be helpful for you to look up grey rocking as well. I know you want motherly support during difficult times, but unfortunately your mum isn’t capable of that. So really think about the info you share with her, imagine her receiving that news, not your dream mum, your actual mum. Then think about what the outcome or reaction may be, and if it’s worth it for you, or if you’re doing it because you feel obligated to, if it’s something else you’re doing for her at a cost to yourself. It sounds like she had a huge amount of control still, but you are doing amazing.

I agree.
NC is hard and not something every person wants to pursue, I was explaining what helps me.

Thank you so much for the links @AttilaTheMeerkat, I’ve added some of the podcasts to my ‘to listen’ list.

@Chaiandtoast thank you for your reply. I think I was better at grey rocking a few years ago than I am now. I didn’t want to tell my parents about my miscarriage but DH thought we should. I think I’ve made a mistake in showing her a vulnerability and she thinks she can use it to push back in.

@AdamRyan thank you for your reply. I really want to understand why she is the way she is, I desperately do, but I can’t get to the bottom of it. My gran (mum’s mum) had no idea mum was like this towards me and my sister until I told her a few years ago - she said she thought we were ‘the perfect family’. Mum has never had a close relationship with her and would avoid seeing or talking to her at all costs (including driving past the end of her road).

I can understand more why my dad is like he is, although I just wish he had stood up for us. I used to daydream about them separating and being able to live just with dad. He once told me (in more recent years) that he used to come and find us in our rooms after she’d shouted at us, and he’d give us a hug and tell us he loved us - but I honestly do not remember him doing that.

I think your instinct not to tell her about the miscarriage was correct. I would advise low contact initially if you feel you can manage that, and try to establish some strong boundaries. Refuse to let her visit and tell her, and your father, that it's not convenient.

I went no contact with one of my parents 15 years ago. I was physically hurt when younger, too, but the emotional abuse was far worse.

@riabina thank you for replying. I can understand why DH thought we should tell them though - it’s what you’d do with normal, supportive parents.

Unfortunately mine have shown that they’re still very much using the same patterns they always have. If god forbid it happened to us again, I wouldn’t tell them.

Hi everyone, sorry to bump the thread. I’ve been struggling this weekend.

Recovering from her behaviour (and my dad’s lack of protection against it) seems like such an insurmountable task sometimes. It’s only once you start to heal a little bit that you can see the wood for the trees, IYSWIM? And then you see how much work there is to do and how absolutely fundamentally it has affected you to your core.

I honestly felt like a shell of a person, and she did that to me over years and years.

I think the hardest thing (or one of the hard things, anyway) is that she thinks the reason we have a difficult relationship is my fault. She thinks I’m a difficult daughter because I no longer put up with her behaviour, e.g. I wouldn’t cry when she wanted me to cry. And the really sad thing is that I think others buy into that too. A few years ago, she’d tell old school friends or their parents who she saw around my hometown that she ‘wasn’t allowed to talk to me’. She paints me to be an awful person, but I wasn’t the one emotionally abusing my children.

My sister doesn’t want to talk about this with me, which I do understand, so I’m not forcing it. It just feels very lonely, especially following the miscarriage. When I brought up mum’s multiple messages recently with all the hearts etc, my sister just said ‘oh that’s frustrating’ and changed the subject. So it just feels like on top of the miscarriage grief, I’m trying to deal with this grief for my family too, or for the parents I should’ve had, plus trying to maintain boundaries, plus trying not to look like an awful person.

Thank you if you’re reading x

It’s really hard to recognise emotional abuse as well, isn’t it? I remember when I was sixth form age telling a teacher that my mum was ‘pushy’ (because I wanted to phrase it kind of gently and test the water, maybe?), and she laughed.

It just went totally under the radar because we were quiet, well-behaved children (scared into submission, really). That’s why my granny referred to us as the ‘perfect family’, because we presumably looked it from the outside.

My mum also holds positions of responsibility in the community, specifically in schools, which makes me so uncomfortable.

Honestly if being in contact with them is causing you this much distress then I would stop. They won’t change.

Thanks @Wolfiefan. I definitely think I need to lower contact. We were pretty low contact before the miscarriage, which was manageable, but I really regret telling her about the Mc because she’s messaging me a lot again, saying that she’ll come up to hug me, that she misses my dog, that she’ll get my dad to drop her off at my house etc.

I think the messages make me feel so uncomfortable because it takes me back to 6-7 years ago when she was really, really difficult.

Thank you for replying

My ex emotionally bullied me after we broke up. I had counciling, cbt... over and over.
I only seem to be making some regress now whilst I'm having some edmr trauma therapy.
I still have to deal with him as we have children and I'm still triggered by anything to do with him. But I have taken big steps forward since starting this treatment.

Sending you love ❤️

Thank you @mintmagnum3, I’m sorry for what happened to you, sending you love too. I tried EMDR maybe 18 months ago and had to stop because I got too distressed. I did see a slight step backwards after that, because the image you’re trying to desensitise just stayed in my head. I’ve heard so many positives about it, though, that it makes me think I should try again. Thank you x

You don't need to apologise for bumping your own thread. You have the right to your own feelings and your own wishes.

A few things that immediately stand out to me.

1 I'm so very sorry about your miscarriage.

2 You need to explain to your DH that he doesn't (fortunately) have the experience to deal with abusive parents and he needs to take your lead in how you manage them. Your mum is not normal. Her reactions to events will not be normal and will likely make an already traumatic event worse

3 You're in counselling - good. I would suggest talking to your counsellor about how you work towards NC. I appreciate that seems impossible to you right now but it can be a process.

4 I honestly can't imagine old school friends or their parents giving it more than a passing thought if she 'wasn't allowed' to talk to you. They've probably not thought about it since the second she told them. Don't let that get into your head.

5 Make technology your friend so your mum can't intrude. How is she messaging you? I would keep her blocked except for a set time every few days, so you only have to deal with her when you are able to prepare yourself, and at the time of her choosing.

My gut reaction to what you describe- only you will know if it rings true-

So, she’s broken. She doesn’t know how to ‘do’ relationships, so she’s pushing to reestablish what she expects a relationship to be. She doesn’t actually want a real one. She just needs reassurance that things are as they ‘should’ be.

She’ll back off a bit if you go through the motions in some way- but not for real because that will hurt you.

So grey rock again, and set up a schedule you can cope with- see her Sundays for coffee and cake or Thursday on the way home from work.

Take control of the contact instead of hiding from it.

feed her some tidbits from a very long spoon- maybe text her every other day- good morning/how was your appointment etc.

at the moment your running on adrenaline and hiding while she tries to winkle you out.

You should be able to give her enough to settle her down then gradually back off again.

Your sister perhaps can’t cope with thinking/talking/listening to it. It’s exhausting to go through, isn’t it?

💐

Hi,
I recognise a lot of what you say from my own childhood and indeed, adulthood as well!

I find it difficult to talk about now and the way I deal with it is to concentrate on the many positives in my life as an adult. I am very low contact with my parents, which took many years to get to. I basically had to ditch the expectation that they will be like parents (and with that any normal aspect of behaviour like sharing important aspects of your life) and have lunch a few times a year, so they can see DC and I don’t feel guilty for not seeing them. Unfortunately I also have no contact with my sisters, as my parents had a bit of a divide and rule approach, and I think we all had different experiences and have coped in different ways.

I also had miscarriages and you are quite vulnerable in the aftermath of these. I think here is the time you say ‘thank you but no thank you’ and re-assert your boundaries to both your mum and your dad. It’s okay to say that you do not wish visitors, and to answer texts at a point when you feel able. i also think hopefully going forward your DH can accept your steer on what you want to share with your parents or not. It’s difficult for people who have not experienced this growing up to know what it is like. But basically, all rules of normal family interactions are off the table and you need to do what is best for your mental health and focus on your own life and well-being. And not feel guilty for this.

@meepthebeep I’m really sorry you are struggling. Your Mum sounds awful and a lot like mine, particularly the positioning of you as the problem. It sounds like you are doing really hard work and that you are making decisions to keep yourself safe. I’m sorry your sister can’t be supportive- it took my sister a long time to see what was happening and that was really difficult for her, we were all very invested in the idea of being a perfect family and ignored AB’s dismissed what was really happening - normally blaming ourselves. Maybe your sister isn’t ready to look at the relationships yet?