Is this abusive?

[adventangelicat]

My bil has I think problems with anger and I feel like it is getting worse and worse. He has 5 dc and shouts and yells at them all the time. He frequently tells one of them in particular that he is “useless” and an “idiot” - we went on holiday for them for a week in October and I dont think a day went by when he didn’t call his child a name like this. There is also a lot of roughhousing and play-fighting with his dses which sometimes crosses the line and becomes too rough imo.

SIL tends to play the good cop role and appease everyone and seems mortified by his behaviour at times. He is rude to staff if we go out for a meal and when something went wrong on holiday he was swearing on the phone to the travel agent, which achieved nothing. I was the one who got it resolved without swearing at anyone. He constantly talks about himself and how great he is. Last time we saw them it seemed worse than ever and then SIL made a joke about how he had stopped her going on a trip with her sister and the oldest two dc which to me seems controlling.

There is talk of another holiday with pils too and I have told dh that i am Not prepared for us to go, as I find bil increasingly unpleasant and difficult to be around. Dh agrees that we are not going but won’t tell his dps or bil the actual reason. I do actually worry that if this is what he is like in front of us, what is he like behind closed doors. I worry for my nieces and nephews of the impact on them of having him be so angry all the time. Not sure what I am asking really, just needed to get this off my chest.

I don't think abuse has to be physical to be abusive. But I also don't believe isolated words or phrases, or even isolated events, always constitute as abuse.

I don't think abuse has to be physical to be abusive. But I also don't believe isolated words or phrases, or even isolated events, always constitute as abuse.

OP said in the first post that it's not isolated incidents.

@Outliers

OP is asking if the behaviour is abuse. It is defined by the NSPCC as abuse.

Your opinion and my opinion are irrelevant.

I may have the opinion that you were not abused. You may have the opinion that I was not abused. Our opinions count for nothing, with regard to OP's question. Our opinions do not trump authoritative nationally recognised bodies. Here's another:

https://www.relate.org.uk/get-help/emotional-abuse?gclid=CjwKCAiA1fqrBhA1EiwAMU5m_z20BQikLF-67JBL8x7ftG-qLNdw1vGimQLGeQOMhli5d16ay-VTexoCxwkQAvD_BwE

You may disagree with them, too, which would also be irrelevant.

It's a public open forum actually where everyone is free to provide their input, including personal opinions. You, nor the NSPCC, are not the arbiter of what views can be expressed on any topic, including abuse. It's a charity, not a governing body.

OP is free to seek their counsel if she wishes.

It's a public open forum actually where everyone is free to provide their input, including personal opinions

Thank you for this @Outliers , really helpful. My personal opinion is that you are wrong, and that OP would do well to refer to nationally recognised institutions, rather than opinions spouted by randoms on a forum, including my own.

OP, here is the definition of child abuse by a governing body. What you've talked about is detailed here, under 'emotional abuse'

https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/caa/child-abuse/what-is-child-abuse/

I hope you find a way to support who needs supporting here. Good luck.

In this case, it’s been clearly communicated that this is a pattern of behaviour, and very much the default. It’s not isolated words, phrases, or events.

Thank you for this @Outliers, really helpful. My personal opinion is that you are wrong, and that OP would do well to refer to nationally recognised institutions, rather than opinions spouted by randoms on a forum, including my own.
@Watchkeys great I'm very happy to disagree.

OP I would be very sure you're observing genuine abuse and not sensationalising what could be relatively benign exchanges. If the children or SIL appear to be badly affected, or have expressed concerns and/or have asked for your support - then by all means, do what you can.

I don't think derailing the thread further with an aimless debate will be of any benefit so will leave it there.

@adventangelicat

If the children or SIL appear to be badly affected, or have expressed concerns and/or have asked for your support

Many abuse victims do not seek help or express concerns. It's very common to minimise the abuse, minimise feelings, protect the abuser, and try to pretend to the outside world that all is well. It's very common not to ask for support, and also common for the abuser to threaten the victim(s) with escalation of abuse, if they talk to anybody about it. Expecting an abuse victim to step out of the house or pick up the phone and say 'Could I have some help, please? My husband is abusing me/our children' is unrealistic. This is acknowledged here,

If you’re experiencing domestic abuse and feel frightened of, or controlled by, a partner, an ex-partner or family member, it’s important to remember that it’s not your fault and there is no shame in seeking help. It may seem like a difficult step to take, but there is support available

by this governing body

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/domestic-abuse-how-to-get-help

This may also be useful (from further down the same page)

If you are worried that a friend, neighbour or loved one is a victim of domestic abuse, you can call the National Domestic Abuse Helpline for free and confidential advice, 24 hours a day on 0808 2000 247

He has 5 dc and shouts and yells at them all the time. He frequently tells one of them in particular that he is “useless” and an “idiot

Very few people or governing bodies would regard this as 'benign exchanges', not least because they're not exchanges at all; they are verbal assaults.

I don't think derailing the thread further with an aimless debate

OP, I hope you didn't find the debate about whether it was abuse or not to be an aimless derail, on a thread entitled 'Is this abusive'!

Thanks for everyone's responses. It does sounds very much like emotional abuse and this chimes with my gut feeling about it.

How does your husband want to deal with it?

Having been in an abusive relationship (and your bil is most definitely abusive) I agree with @Watchkeys saying that many abuse victims do not seek help. For a long time I didn't say anything because I was fearful of the repercussions should anything get back to my abuser.

But I prayed and hoped that someone would overhear and say something so my abuser couldn't blame me for it. My (male) neighbour must've heard so much verbal abuse, shouting and crying but never said a thing or asked if I was ok. Maybe he didn't know how to deal with it but it made me sad to think he turned a blind eye.

I really wished someone would've called my abuser out and said it was abuse because even now he minimises and says it was just a bit of name calling. The reality was I was insulted, put down, sworn at, shouted in the face and afraid to be at home. Every single day.

Those poor children having a father like that. Thank you for being concerned OP. I do understand it can be difficult not knowing how to approach such situations. Domestic abuse charities and organisations will have some helpful advice.

I also think this article might be useful if you're not sure what to say to someone you think is being abused

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/nov/04/i-think-my-friends-husband-is-emotionally-abusing-her-should-i-talk-to-her-about-it

Call social services.

Calling a child names is a bully boy tactic and this is from his father who is adversely effecting the childs development in countless ways that will bare scars lasting a lifetime !.,he will feel rejected,abandoned, may feel he has to over achieve,maybe anxious this will be his core belief system. the father is fisgusting ad is the mother for just standing there, i for one would not allow my children around him !.

poor child needs words of encouragemrnt,love abd protection to develop into a healthy adult. Why do uou think society has such social problems like addiction,high crime rates. Strain on nhs, housing/ homelessness it s because the child would of had a traumatic childhood that was not only abusive but neglectful.

Horrendous call social services and be forth right about it.

.