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Original poster

Dilemma over xmas contact with ex and DD

57 replies

MyOldMansADustman0 · 07/12/2023 11:30

DD has supervised contact centre contact with her father (because of DV)
Has been ongoing for several years.
He has fortnightly contact and I have stuck rigidly to the order. I have missed a couple of sessions due to illness, but I have immediately made them up and therefore have not missed any contact whatsoever for the duration of the order.
One thing I find a sticking point is the moral dilemma over birthdays and christmas.
I absolutely cannot bear the thought of my DD thinking her father doesn't care about her on her birthday and xmas's, so I have always offered him an additional supervised contact near her birthday or xmas.
We have a dilemma historically where the contact centre chooses to close over xmas so DD goes up to 4 weeks without a session as his last session is always the week or two weeks before xmas.
I am wondering if I should offer an xmas contact?
The issue I have is, am I making a rod for my own back?
I absolutely despise the man, but for all intents and purposes I have ALWAYS prioritised DD's needs over my own which is why I have never opted to frustrate contact in anyway.
We are approaching final hearing stage and I am worried by doing this it will be an expectation.
To note - he NEVER asks to see her on birthdays or xmas's, takes no involvement or interest in school, school have never heard from him. He doesn't know anything about her life or what activities she does, what her interests are, what her friends are called.
Just want some advice on the morality of it vs the future expectations.

OP posts:
Original poster
MyOldMansADustman0 · 07/12/2023 12:32

TBH, it's not so much an EXTRA contact at Christmas, because of the contact centre closing, it's bringing the contact forward so he has two weeks in a row instead of going 3 or 4 weeks until he has the next session.

It's never come from him to organise it, it's always me.

Birthdays I have offered him an extra one that's close to her birthday but I haven't this year as DD started school so he just had the call on her birthday.

Perhaps I am doing too much, but I am quietly confident due to the severity of his abuse that he won't be getting unsupervised any time soon.

OP posts:
pickledandpuzzled · 07/12/2023 12:34

This is her normal. She sees daddy at the contact centre on a regular basis. To mess with that, or even to raise Christmas and birthday as an issue, is actually to highlight it for her.

At the moment she knows what’s what- mummy and mummy’s family, the people she sees all the time, are her Christmas people.

Daddy is the chap she sees fortnightly.

Don’t create the opportunity for her to feel she’s missing something. She doesn’t think that.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 07/12/2023 12:37

Perhaps I am doing too much, but I am quietly confident due to the severity of his abuse that he won't be getting unsupervised any time soon.

Just be careful that you don’t undermine that or put yourself at risk of having to deal with him by giving him opportunity to show that you’ve deviated from the order. Don’t give him the chance to say “well she can’t think I’m that bad because she organised/offered x, y and z”.

You can’t shield your daughter from him not caring forever. Let life be your normal. Which is that she sees him at the centre on the dates the court say and that’s it. If he makes the effort to ask you then consider it, but don’t make the effort for him.

Many abusive men use the family courts as a tool to continue their abuse and control.

Original poster
MyOldMansADustman0 · 07/12/2023 12:40

I get that, it is NOTHING to do with him though and I have only offered because I was prioritising DD's needs over my own, that's the stance I would take if he challenged it. TBH, he is so thick that wouldn't even cross his mind to say that! but I will keep it in mind. x

OP posts:
AmazingDayz · 07/12/2023 12:42

But you said she doesn’t care about seeing him and never asks so not sure it’s her needs?

Original poster
MyOldMansADustman0 · 07/12/2023 12:44

No she doesn't.
I guess I just want to be able to say I did all I could to facilitate her relationship with him.
One of my fears is him trying to destroy my relationship with her and alienate her from me.

OP posts:
YetMoreNewBeginnings · 07/12/2023 12:44

MyOldMansADustman0 · 07/12/2023 12:40

I get that, it is NOTHING to do with him though and I have only offered because I was prioritising DD's needs over my own, that's the stance I would take if he challenged it. TBH, he is so thick that wouldn't even cross his mind to say that! but I will keep it in mind. x

But you are establishing a routine of him being part of special occasions, and cementing that that is what is best for your DD.

That means if he does get unsupervised contact, or if he starts to push for more supervised contact if he senses you pulling back, the precedent is already there that he should get time on the occasions. Because you said it was important for your DD.

Don’t risk that for a man that doesn’t actually care.

And at some point he’ll walk away, probably when he has new victims, and your DD will have to deal with that. The bigger a part he is in her life the harder that will be.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 07/12/2023 12:45

MyOldMansADustman0 · 07/12/2023 12:44

No she doesn't.
I guess I just want to be able to say I did all I could to facilitate her relationship with him.
One of my fears is him trying to destroy my relationship with her and alienate her from me.

taking her to the contact centre is facilitating it. You said yourself that involves a lot of travel.

Also if he asks then that would be facilitating.

Encouraging, or pushing, the relationship isn’t the same as facilitating. You just need to facilitate it. No more.

RoachFish · 07/12/2023 13:06

I agree with @CountryStore . In the effort of doing what is right for your DD and not letting her know what kind of man her father is you are essentially setting her up for some major disappointment. She also might not be able to share her real feelings about her dad as she gets older as she feels like the OP is siding with him by facilitating contact, so clearly you don't (in her mind) think he's all that bad. I know it's court ordered but please don't go out of your way to make him seem like something he's not. He's an abusive adult male. He's not the right role model for her to have.

Nordlo · 07/12/2023 13:20

Don't gaslight your own kid! Let his actions speak for him. I'd be completely neutral

Chamomileteaplease · 07/12/2023 13:27

Something that worries me is that in your concern about showing your daughter your impartiality, you are riding roughshod over her instincts.

She doesn't like going and doesn't ask about him or to see him. I would presume even at five years old she can feel not only his lack of concern but even the fact that he is not a nice person and not a safe person.

Please think about the mixed messages you are giving her in your attempts to not alienate her from her father. She needs to be able to trust her instincts.

LifeExperience · 07/12/2023 13:35

Children aren't stupid. She knows her dad doesn't care, and you trying to force a relationship makes you lie to her. She needs to be able to trust you 100% because you're the only real parent she has, and you are undermining that trust. Don't do that to her.

Tell her that there is something broken in her father that has nothing to do with her, but it means that she won't have a normal relationship with him. She will feel most secure if you're absolutely honest.

Original poster
MyOldMansADustman0 · 07/12/2023 13:46

You are all right.
I do want her to be able to trust me 100% and to know that she can tell me how she feels and I'll listen to her. I want her to always be honest with me.
She never had much of a relationship with him when we actually lived with him so that's always been the status quo to be honest.
I guess the reality is I am creating this false world for her by trying to force the issue, when in fact i could be more damaging to her.
I take on board all of the comments.

OP posts:
RoachFish · 07/12/2023 13:53

I'm really glad that you asked on here @MyOldMansADustman0 and that you got to see things from a different perspective. It's very clear that you are a very loving and dedicated mother but sometimes it's hard to see the woods for the trees when all you are trying to do is to not see your child hurting. I think she has you and you are everything she needs. You are her stability, her constant.

ForTheLoveOfFriends · 07/12/2023 14:01

CountryStore · 07/12/2023 12:32

The other side of this is why do we, as a society, apparently see it as important that a man who has been violent towards the child's mum should have any right to see the child? He should forfeit his parental rights, but obviously still be made to pay the maintenance. The child should get the full facts and decide when she's old enough of she wants to see him.
Meanwhile, what actually happens is the mum runs round getting the kid to the contact centre, pretending that the DV hasn't happened in case anyone thinks badly of her (!) the dad probably pays her fuck all, and the mum looks like a bitch if she ever questions any of it 😳

Show quote history

Because it’s not about the parent’s right to see the child, it’s about the child’s right to know their parent. And at 5 she’s far too young to be told the facts. No parent should be putting that on their child.

By doing as the OP is doing she is in fact putting her child’s right to a relationship with her father first. The child will realise in time what her father is, and it won’t take long for her to realise that the contact she has with her father is different to that which e.g. her friends with separated parents have.

By alienating the child against the parent when she’s young there’s a very real risk that the child will seek out the other parent when she’s older, hear a different story from that parent at a time in her life when she’s easily influenced such as when she’s a teen and rebellious anyway, and then lay the blame with the mother.

This way is the best way, even if it would be preferable for it to not be like this.

OP if he doesn’t ask then he doesn’t get. I would just explain that the centre is closed and she’ll see daddy when next she sees him.

Good luck with the final hearing.

Original poster
MyOldMansADustman0 · 07/12/2023 14:05

ForTheLoveOfFriends · 07/12/2023 14:01

Because it’s not about the parent’s right to see the child, it’s about the child’s right to know their parent. And at 5 she’s far too young to be told the facts. No parent should be putting that on their child.

By doing as the OP is doing she is in fact putting her child’s right to a relationship with her father first. The child will realise in time what her father is, and it won’t take long for her to realise that the contact she has with her father is different to that which e.g. her friends with separated parents have.

By alienating the child against the parent when she’s young there’s a very real risk that the child will seek out the other parent when she’s older, hear a different story from that parent at a time in her life when she’s easily influenced such as when she’s a teen and rebellious anyway, and then lay the blame with the mother.

This way is the best way, even if it would be preferable for it to not be like this.

OP if he doesn’t ask then he doesn’t get. I would just explain that the centre is closed and she’ll see daddy when next she sees him.

Good luck with the final hearing.

Show quote history

This is exactly what I was trying to say about wanting to be able to say I did all I can before he tries to damage my relationship with her. I have no doubt in my mind if he was to achieve unsupervised contact then he would do everything he could to alienate her from her and say I prevented him from seeing her etc.

OP posts:
Quitelikeit · 07/12/2023 14:12

I am quite surprised that he has been given supervised contact as there are many stories of DV where the mother doesn’t manage to achieve that! You must have a sensible judge on your case

Id be wary of expecting it to continue indefinitely as the whole point of it is to see if he turns up, what he is like with your child, and how she is with him and of course to keep the child safe

You say he doesn’t ask about her schooling etc how do you know what they talk about? He is showing up though so did he initiate proceedings? He must have a goal to get unsupervised?

Original poster
MyOldMansADustman0 · 07/12/2023 14:15

He does have a goal to have unsupervised, but we are currently waiting for a report which will advise on recommendations. DD also is party to proceedings and has a Cafcass guardian.
He has turned up to contact, however I receive a report after each one and I can see quite clearly he only chooses to talk about things that he wants to talk about.
He is the applicant in proceedings, I am the respondent.
He's had supervised for a very long time, one of the judges was horrified by the level of abuse towards DD and me that was perpetrated.

OP posts:
CountryStore · 07/12/2023 14:16

ForTheLoveOfFriends · 07/12/2023 14:01

Because it’s not about the parent’s right to see the child, it’s about the child’s right to know their parent. And at 5 she’s far too young to be told the facts. No parent should be putting that on their child.

By doing as the OP is doing she is in fact putting her child’s right to a relationship with her father first. The child will realise in time what her father is, and it won’t take long for her to realise that the contact she has with her father is different to that which e.g. her friends with separated parents have.

By alienating the child against the parent when she’s young there’s a very real risk that the child will seek out the other parent when she’s older, hear a different story from that parent at a time in her life when she’s easily influenced such as when she’s a teen and rebellious anyway, and then lay the blame with the mother.

This way is the best way, even if it would be preferable for it to not be like this.

OP if he doesn’t ask then he doesn’t get. I would just explain that the centre is closed and she’ll see daddy when next she sees him.

Good luck with the final hearing.

Show quote history

Yes I do understand that, and realise its about the child's right to know their parent.
Was just trying to say that it seems crazy that mums who were victims of DV are tying themselves up in knots in order to facilitate the contact, while the dad probably doesn't really give a shit, and should really have forfeited the opportunity to see his child when he beat their mother. There's no other situation where it would be seen as desirable for a child to have to have a relationship with a violent man.

Sorry for derailing your thread op. Sounds like you are doing everything you are supposed to do. Do that and no extra

Hope you and your dd have a lovely Christmas 🎄

pikkumyy77 · 07/12/2023 14:21

You are, with the best of intentions, setting her up for failure in future relationships if you continue to try to force their relationship into sentimental tropes like “daddy loves you” and “daddy plans to see you” etc…. It seems harmless and like you are shielding her from a painful situation but you are creating confusion about what love and care are. In the future, when men treat her badly and let her down, she will have a fistful of excuses and will take dross for gold. “Oh! Daddy always missed my big days but he loves me.”

Quitelikeit · 07/12/2023 14:39

In that case give him nothing over and above what the court has ordered.

You are indeed lucky and I hope that the judge continues to protect your daughter from the monster who is her father.

Recently in the news - the Rochdale sex scandal - a rapist was given access to the son conceived due to to rape, for which he was sentenced for.

I felt sick after reading it and well I would have no words for the poor woman involved. I cannot imagine the suffering involved for her.

IsThePopeCatholic · 07/12/2023 15:07

If you build him up to your dh as being a caring father, she is going to be massively disappointed when she eventually knows the truth. Keep things as they are.

IsThePopeCatholic · 07/12/2023 15:08
  • to your dd
Ponderingwindow · 07/12/2023 15:16

I would not offer him any contact outside of the contact center, even if you or someone else supervises. It could set a precedent. Additionally, it could be confusing for your child.

i don’t think it’s crazy to put in the agreement that ahead of long contact center closures he is allowed to request an additional meeting if closure will prevent a regularly scheduled visit. Say something like he has to put in the request x number of weeks in advance.

Original poster
MyOldMansADustman0 · 07/12/2023 15:23

It isn't contact outside of the centre, it's just a contact session to make up the missed session over Christmas, it isn't anything additional. The contact supervisor will be supervising.

OP posts: