Staying in a marriage for security, or leaving for freedom?

[Raspberrysnowball]

Just hoping to get some thoughts on my situation, more of a WWYD really!

It's about my marriage - been married to my DH for 23 years. Where do I start. It all seems so complicated. It's hard to sum up, and give an objective picture of a long marriage in a few paragraphs, but I will try!

Ever since I've known him, DH has been very anxious and depressed. This has affected everything in our lives, particularly his work, which he always struggled with. Over the years he was emotionally abusive to me - angry, slamming doors, walking off from me when we were out somewhere and not coming back, slamming the phone down on me etc, ignoring me for days.

However, he could also be nice and kind. The horrible behaviour seemed to stem from when he was very stressed with work. We have three dc, all now teens, and one with diagnosed SN, but we suspect one of the others also has SN. I also think that DH has some SN, and he agrees.

DH did not do any childcare or nights or housework when the dc were small as he said he couldn't cope with that as well as work. I was a SAHM for many years but went back to work a couple of years ago.

Basically DH's horrible behaviour came to a head in lockdown. He was awful, but kept blaming me for his behaviour. I thought I was going to have a breakdown with the stress.

Earlier on this year DH changed jobs and is now working part time on a much lower income job. His behaviour has greatly improved, and he is not angry, passive aggressive or horrible any more. He has briefly apologised for his behaviour over the years but only when I brought it up, and to be honest does not seem to really understand how he was, or the effect it had on me.

Sorry for the long background, but I wanted to give an overview. There is probably a lot I have missed out - I also wanted to say that I came into the relationship with childhood trauma as I had a very selfish and disengaged dad. I have spent years going to therapy, doing self development etc and feel a much stronger person, less emotional and more balanced.

The other things to mention are that DH does not do any housework or gardening. I do it all, as well as school and dc admin, organising social lives, Christmas, birthdays, holidays etc. Over the past few years there has been no intimacy or affection in our relationship - I brought it up for a while but DH just said that the feeling is not there any more for him.

When DH is at home, he spends all the time watching TV or doing hobbies. He is always in the house as be only works part time from home and I feel like I don't have any space.

I have been feeling so stressed and conflicted about this situation for years. It reached a head a couple of months ago and I said to DH that we would have to separate. He was angry and upset. He says that we owe it to the dc to provide a stable family life. We worked out the finances and if we split it is going to be a real struggle for us both. The main issue really though is that neither of us want to disrupt the dc - they are either going through or approaching exam years and are all sensitive.

If we split up we would both have to live in a much smaller house or flat, in a not very nice area. I would probably be eligible for benefits to top up my salary. I doubt there would be any money for luxuries, holidays etc. It would be a struggle. Whereas now we are in a nice family home and can afford a holiday and some luxuries eg gym membership etc.

I was again speaking about this with DH yesterday and he said that he would be fine with me having an affair if it means the family could stay together. I just don't think I could do that, it would add complication to an already very difficult situation.

I just don't know what to do. I've thought that if I stayed, I would now feel strong enough to have our life more on my terms, whereas I have felt that we are are have always lived in the way that DH wants. I would say to my DH that we need to get a cleaner and finish doing up the house etc (he always got angry if I suggested those before as apparently "we can't afford it"). So currently the house is half renovated and unfinished. I would also say that I want to have friends and family over sometimes without sulks and drama from DH.

But I don't know if that would be enough. I don't know if after a while he would revert back to being moody, resisting everything, being controlling etc.

Having said everything about his negative traits, he loves the dc, and he is loyal, honest and reliable. I feel like he's a friend and I do care for him deeply.

It's just that I would like a relationship where there is physical and emotional connection, where the other one is interested in me as a person, we share similar goals and outlook on how we want to live life. I would be fine alone, I'm not counting on another relationship, I was just saying that if I have a relationship, I would want the above, otherwise I'd rather not be in one.

I have been feeling in conflict for months and I am in turmoil. I just want to make a decision and move on with my life. DH and I have had marriage counselling a few years ago and last year, but nothing really came of it. I'm currently having individual counselling, which is good to help clarify my thoughts, but obviously the counsellor can't tell me what the best thing to do would be!

Do I stay - the dc seem happy, dh is content and now seems more mentally stable, we are financially comfortable. But I don't feel happy in the relationship, we want different things out of life, I feel restricted, stifled, sad because of the way I was treated for years, and sad because of the lack of emotional connection and intimacy. Although we do sometimes have nice times together as a family which I really like.

Or do I leave - dc would be so upset and uprooted, DH would be angry. All of our standard of living would be greatly reduced, and life would be a struggle. DH has already said that he would want 50/50 custody so the dc would have to keep going from one house to another. But I would not have to be in a relationship where I am unhappy, I would have freedom and autonomy over my life.

I woke up this morning in my nice bedroom, the dc were laughing and chatting getting ready for school, it was a nice family morning. I thought "What the hell am i thinking, to want to destroy all of this?" But i feel so unhappy inside. Maybe I should just go on anti depressants to get through it.

It's so so difficult!

@ArchetypalBusyMum "I think given how put upon you've been and how many compromises you've already spent your life making it would be nice to experience being you without impositions from other people's emotional complexities."

That really resonated with me. I would love some time and space on my own (ongoing) after years of dealing with DH's ups and downs. And it's true I feel I have so little autonomy in my life currently.

@ChevyCamaro "Once you have sloughed off the joy drain you will no doubt have the mental and physical energy to achieve things you never dreamed of. "

I do feel so drained at the moment, and have done for years. I feel there is a lot of apathy and I'm just mentally exhausted. It sounds pathetic I know, but I feel like if I had someone to help me organise everything - sort out the house, work out the finances, apply for anything I may be entitled to etc, it would be much easier.

As it is, I would be doing everything on my own. The last conversation with DH about all this, he told me if we split, I would have to sort everything out by myself as he doesn't feel he has the capacity. Even though he's only working two days a week and I'm working full time and doing everything else.

I need to find some strength but I feel very beaten down and low at the moment.

@trunkler yes, I suppose it is like another child. I think I am attached to him being here as I guess it's the presence of a father for the dc, which I feel is really important. But then I have to ask myself, is it actually a positive influence?

The points you have made re the dc are all ones I have considered and worried about. I would be heartbroken if any of them wanted to live with him full time, and I think my daughter in particular may want to, as I know she is very empathic and would feel sorry for him. Re Christmas etc, I have no idea. I think it would be fine to still have it all together, but I guess it depends how amicable everything is.

I have wanted to go to see a solicitor but DH got angry when I suggested it, maybe I just need to tell him that I am going to get clarity for us both.

Is there a TLDR summary anywhere?

The reason to split is your marriage is making you miserable. looking at what you have written it sounds like it is a dire way to live. When people have children that are ND they worry about them a lot because they may love them unconditionally but they know they may be hard to live with so worry about their futures because who can tolerate some of the behaviours. Even if he is ND it doesn’t mean you have to put up with a situation making you this unhappy.

I have three friends getting divorced and one who is in marriage counselling. We are all round the 20 to 25 year marriage mark and kids leaving home seems to be the main catalyst. The marriage in counselling could perhaps be saved the others are way past that stage and that is what yours sounds like.

If you break up you would have 2 days wages missing. If he was some sort of cash cow as brutal as that is at least he could fund stuff but he can’t even do that. The main issue is where the children live and who with.

Go and get 30 minutes free advice from a solicitor that offers it, take paperwork, take a list of questions. Do not tell him you are doing this.

@Raspberrysnowball Don't tell him you are going just book to see a solicitor. Start prioritising yourself. Your children are old enough to be left alone with him so you can start going out and leaving them all to it. I completely understand your reluctance to leave. You would still be doing all the life admin stuff but it would feel different because you wouldn't be feeling let down all the time, he is literally sitting on his arse for days on end. I agree that 2 days earnings isn't exactly a huge cash cow you would be losing either.

His threat of you having to do everything divorce related is a scare tactic because he would lose a lot more than you in terms of having to do things in the future, like all his laundry, maybe that is something you can start thinking about, what things can you withdraw from that impact only him.

With the age of the children could them cooking a meal together at least one night a week for the family be possible? I have a teen and an adult child, they do the dishwasher, I only do 1 day, they each get a weekend load so a Sunday and the other a Monday. They also do the bins, empty them on set days and put the bins out for the bin men. They strip their beds and remake them with clean bedding. This might start to ease your load of responsibility.

I think reading these make me sad because Dh is brilliant, we have been married almost 25 years, he never makes my life harder.

Personally I think I’d stick it out and have an affair! 🤣

Hi @Raspberrysnowball

I was married to a man like your husband. I ended the marriage a year ago - 26 November 2022. We have literally just (2 days ago) signed the agreement to divide our assets - I will buy him out of the house. Our kids are 5 and 9. I am 42.

He didn’t want the marriage to end - like your H, not because he loved me, but because of the impact on his standard of living (I earn good money and I did everything else apart from mow the lawns and take the bins out).

I looked down the barrel of another potentially 50 years of being ignored, spoken to like shit, never treated with any warmth or affection and I couldn’t face it. I got to the point where I came very close to considering an affair - which is so counter to my moral code - and then I thought I’ll just wait until the next time he screams abuses at me/smashes something and then I’ll have an excuse to go. Once you are thinking like this your marriage is so done. It has been such a hard year but I’ve never once regretted my decision.

Could you suggest nesting as an interim step? This is what I had to do. I rented a small place and we took turns rotating in and out of the family home. Less disruption for the kids and it just got us separated. I had to rent and furnish it all by myself, he didn’t lift a finger. He’s now there full time and I’m at home with the kids.

I love a story with a happy ending, well done @Endoftheroad12345 .

OP I keep feeling you and the kids should stay in your home and DH, if he had any decency, would go. So nesting is a good idea. It starts off as an interim measure, a trial separation, then morphs into becoming the lazy fella’s new home.

Keep one step ahead, don’t let him know this is your goal.

This rings a bell for me, and my thoughts on endining the marriage was that if we split I had a hope of happiness. There was no hope of happiness with him.

I persuaded him to leave, with the pomise that I would stay in contact and be there for him, which has happened over the years (he had no interest in the children at all).

When he left the house warmed up, and a huge grey cloud left. the children didn't spend all the time in their rooms and friends were welcome. Never regretted it for a moment.

You dont need to seek his permission or approval to speak to a solicitor do you. just book one and do it. He is wrong. just because you have been married a long time doesnt mean that this is how it is because really it isnt. or at least it shouldnt be.

I know this is an overused phrase on here, but I could have written your post word for word @Raspberrysnowball The one difference is that my dad was absolutely great, and a wonderful husband to my mum, which make me more disappointed in how my children have ended up with a crap dad. I'm sorry you had that 😔

I'm like you, paragraphs and paragraphs of examples of how unhappy dh makes me and how this is no life to live, and then one paragraph right at the end where you have a 'nice' morning and you think "how can I possibly dare to throw this away?"

My kids are not daft, neither are yours, they know that the relationship they are seeing between their mum and dad is not right. But at the same time you are waiting and waiting for complete 100% justification to change their lives because of your decision, and it never seems to come, and you back down again. I know that they avoid spending any time with him, as do I. Last night for example both kids went upstairs to do their homework and I had the choice between sitting downstairs with DH watching the football, or upstairs with no bedrooms free to go to, and I just lay on the floor on the landing. What life is that? Added to this, it was DS16's birthday yesterday, and this is how we spend it.... But when he's not there, the three of us are in the living room, watching what we want, having a laugh, just being more relaxed.

DH has admitted he has no feelings for me, has been looking at online hookups, and is content to carry on living life as it is. I think he would be open to me having an affair as well, but like you I want to just have a nice loving relationship with someone who cares about me and understands me, not a quick shag.

The only chance I'll ever have of finding this is with someone else, not DH, so the answer is obvious. But it is so so hard to take the leap. I dream of the freedom, but the fear of the risk of going for it, and the guilt of imposing this on the kids (and DH, I don't love him but I do care about how he'll manage if this happens) is overwhelming.

We both know the answer. I completely understand your situation.

"But it is so so hard to take the leap".

Nothing worth doing is easy.

I would urge you to feel the fear and do it anyway. Be brave and make the break here; your children will also thank you for doing that. There is never any one good time to leave.

All these thoughts too about throwing it away is an example of the sunk costs fallacy. Do not get further bogged down in sunk costs. The past is gone never to return.

It’s easier to fight the sunk cost fallacy in work situations and financial situations because you can actually sit down and do the math.
But there’s no maths for relationships.
There’s no spreadsheet to calculate the expected costs of the pain of breaking up versus the misery of coming home every day to somebody you don’t want to see.
But when it comes to emotions, we are terrible at gauging how we will feel in the future and how important those feelings are. For example, we generally overestimate the significance of feeling a large amount of pain today and underestimate the significance of feeling small amounts of pain over years and years. Therefore, we stay in a bad relationship. We stay in the shitty job. “I’ll just give it another year,” we say, because another year feels bearable in the moment. Whereas destroying our relationship feels unbearable.
In this sense, we throw away good relationships after bad. Because every year we stay in a bad relationship, we’re missing the opportunity to find a good relationship.

Staying is not "easier" for you nor does it help you teach the children positive and life affirming lessons about relationships. What do you want to teach your children about relationships and what are they learning here?. You know your kids are not daft and they have likely picked up on all the vibes, both spoken and unspoken between you and their dad. Amongst other things they are learning that a marriage where a parent has decided to stay for the so called sake of the children could well become their "norm" too.

How can you feel more empowered?. Consider seeking legal advice re separation and divorce whilst gathering up financial information on the quiet. Knowledge here is also power.

Thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat the voice of God as ever 😁

I empathise with much of your post except stbXH did take on the lion's share of child rearing and housekeeping whilst I worked shifts. He had a shit upbringing, he has anxiety depression etc. He bullied me for years. He has a very cruel streak. He resents me a lot. I put up with it for over 20 years like you but he's never going to change and there comes a point when you have to ask yourself if you really want a future with him. I decided not to. He was holding me back in so many ways. I just felt if I said the wrong thing or was my honest self he'd think it was about him and how shit a human he was feeling. Well, I'm not into doing that anymore so we're divorcing.

Some really good advice here but just to add if he says he wants 50/50 that doesn't mean it's what he should get or what is right for the kids - would that be what they want? You'd have to be really brave, especially if he is manipulative and shouty, but please think about this - it shouldn't be the default position in a situation like this. Then added to that, if you don't do 50/50 you may get more of the split from the house which would help with accommodating you and the children. There are things like part ownership you could consider which might get you somewhere bigger/better area. And as the youngest grows, I guess you can work more/progress?

It's so very hard OP. I left and am so much happier. It's like night has turned to day. And I've met someone wonderful but I'd still be happier than I was either way thanks to the peace and living a life true to myself rather than slogging on in a difficult and thankless relationship. BUT though I have considerably less money, I could afford a house in the same area and we can go on holiday - just not anything too flash, but we have enough. So I'm not in any way minimising your worries about not having enough and the impact on your DC as I know, for many, it can really feel like you can't afford to split up which totally sucks. Do you think there might be a way in a year or so for you to increase your income, or do you already work full time?

@Raspberrysnowball I was in a very similar situation and have decided to split - we are in the process now, plan is nesting at first, followed by separate houses. DH is on board but hasn't always been (and also suggested an open relationship). Kids (similar ages to yours) have been told and have taken it pretty well, considering.

All I can really tell you is the sheer absolute RELIEF of having made the decision after years of vacillating, and also my total conviction I am doing the right thing. I already feel like a different person, like a cloud has been lifted, that I feel 'OK' for the first time for years. I really had no idea how miserable the relationship - and the indecision over splitting - was making me. My advice is to move forwards - ultimately the question for me was 'can I be happy with him'? I realised the answer was no and the rest followed from there.

I also found that money worries seemed much more manageable once the emotional side was decided. I know there will be major challenges ahead but just being sure about my decision has changed everything. Could you see a therapist to help with this perhaps?

OP can you really see yourself with him in later life, when your kids are gone? He sounds awful.

If you don't want to upset your children's lives right now, could you make a plan to leave in a few years, that way at least some of them will be at Uni etc.
Sit down and work out some practicalities, get a free 30 minute appointment with a solicitor for advice, think about where you would live, what you would be entitled to (Universal Credit, etc), and how you would manage.

That way you get used to the idea and have an 'out' even if you don't use it straight away. In the meantime you could agree with your husband that you live together and stay civil but disengage from the relationship (sounds like he has done this already). All while you make your plans for your new life without him.

Also, you grew up with an emotionally distant father, and by the sounds of it, your children are too. They won't necessarily be devastated by you splitting if he isn't really there for them anyway.

It's always an eyebrow raiser when an OP lists all the horrible traits of their P, but then goes on to say a positive is that they're "loyal".

Of course he's "loyal", no other woman would want him would they?

You work FT, he works PT and yet he does no housework or gardening, you don't have sex, he shouts at you if you try to discuss your relationship and he's ground you down to a place where you think this is marriage. It's not, it's slavery.

You are working for him, for free and he's emotionally abusive to you if you even attempt to try and change that status quo.

Leave, leave soon and stay gone.

Well done @Babybellls - it is the hardest thing I've ever done but you're completely right about the relief. And I think the OP said earlier about knowing she'll be worse off financially etc. - with your 'can I be happy with him' question - knowing the answer to that is no, but there's a huge world of possibility and happiness if not with them is something that really helped me brave it.

I'm glad finances don't seem too dismal now either, and wish you lots of luck through the journey. My kids had wobbles once it happened but got through them pretty quickly and are all adjusted and settled. He'll never admit it but I think my ex is happier too, and is definitely a better dad for it because he realised he had to pull his finger out and make the effort rather than me carrying fatherhood for him!

Also @Raspberrysnowball someone posted this poem - The Journey by Mary Oliver here a few years ago. I remember I was waiting for my son to fall asleep, sat on the floor by his bed scrolling on my phone. And my heart almost stopped when I read it. I wished I hadn't seen it because it spoke to me so much and made me see things clearer - this was my one life, and I had to stop putting someone else's happiness (not that he was happy!), wishes, demands above mine.

http://www.phys.unm.edu/~tw/fas/yits/archive/oliver_thejourney.html - it got me through a lot of tough times during the drawn out split. When I got our new house I printed it out and framed it for my room. It still gives me goosebumps.

If you had an affair, he'd be the first person to use it as a stick to beat you with. He didn't suggest an affair for your sake. He suggested it because that would give him leverage to make you out to be a bad person.

I vote freedom!

I'm in a similar position. You need to do some research and see how your finances would be should you decide to pull the plug on the relationship. I'm in a similar position and would not be able to afford to leave, despite me earning a lot more than my partner.