Stuck between two warring family members. Very painful.

[Chaoticfuckpig]

My Dad (DF) brought my Sister DSis and I up alone because our lovely late mum was mentally unwell (and it was the 80s).

He was a lovely (undiagnosed ADHD) dad and did his best but of course, it was not perfect.

As my DSis has got older (now 40s) she has become increasingly bitter and angry towards our DF and it’s been hard to stay neutral because they often express their relationship issues to me but don’t make progress when they talk to each other because they’re both very explosive and prone to ‘splitting’.

I’ve received a lot of therapy over the years and it breaks my heart that every time there is a meet up/ family gathering/ funeral/ birth/ wedding my sister seems to orchestrate a scenario where our DF is hurt.

With the help of my psychotherapist, I very rarely talk to one about the other unless it’s very casual or superficial.

I do feel upset for our DF often, but know that I can’t call DSis out on this because she has her own reasons for finding his very existence offensive and I simply don’t want to get caught in the middle. She will probably cut me off if I express any kind of opinion so in order to stay on her good side and for my child to have an aunt, I just have to stay out of it.

DSis was invited to a huge holiday home that our dad rented for the family last autumn. When she arrived she was angry that our DF had chosen the location he had and was cold and snappy towards him the whole time.

This week she was planning to come back to the UK for 3 days (she lives in Sweden) before going travelling.

On Sunday my husband, child and I were due to travel to spend the day with her and our ex-step brother where she’s basing herself, have lunch and a catch up, then return home.

When she spoke to our DF to arrange to spend the day with him, she offered him the Friday but he told her he was working that day but could come on the Sunday when we are all due to be there. She didn’t want this and said she’d be seeing our aunt on Saturday and would prefer to see him on the Friday because she felt that he was only coming up to see me, my husband and wanted to see him one on one.

Eventually, he rang her back and she said she’d cancelled her flights and would just see us all together on Sunday but I’m now dreading her being all frosty and passive aggressive about this.

She and him don’t seem to be able to have a positive relationship with each other because of their communication styles and over sensitive natures.

He went to stay with her abroad and she took him all over her beautiful local area. They had one row because he was scared of her driving and it triggered a huge shouting match between them.

She said he just talked all the time about his new partner and was angry with him for not telling her that he was now a vegetarian because she had bought meat which would go to waste. He was hurt by this because he had thought they’d had a lovely time.

As far as I see it DSis gets extremely anxious about travel and family gatherings of any kind.

When she’s anxious, she’s incredibly spiky and unfriendly.

BUT because she sees herself as a very chilled out person, she doesn’t take responsibility or define herself in arguments every bit of friction is seen by heras everyone else’s fault but like all blind spots, if you don’t have anyone close to point these things out, you just carry on wreaking havoc in your relationships and feel like the victim.

Me and my DF have enjoyed an increasingly good relationship as I’ve got older and done ‘the work’ (to use a wanky phrase!) and me and my DSis have an increasingly good relationship since she’s been in therapy and we talk at length about how hard it was growing up without a mum, with lots of loss, with dramas between our DF and his partners. I feel finally that we are in a better place where we can acknowledge how hard it was, how well we’ve done to achieve what we have and we have a shared language now for our difficulties.

But these conflicts between them hurt me on a level that really affects me somatically. It makes me feel emotional that two people who I love so much constantly misunderstand each other.

Our DF is an old man. He won’t change into suddenly going to therapy or using words to navigate relationship issues. He is who he is and as I can see he’s a better person than he was and it’s his own pain from his childhood that causes him to be very defensive when met with my DSis’attacking manner and constant expectation that he will be warm and fluffy.

My DSis had it worse than me growing up because as soon as she was born 2 months premature our mum had extremely bad PND and tried to kill herself. She didn’t have that early attachment so necessary for brain development although our DF did all of the round the clock night feeds and took care of her.

It pains me because I feel that both my DF and my DSis are good people but I feel so protective of our DF when he’s confused by her attacks and kirt tone towards him.

It’s like she’s permanently trying to hurt him and he’s permanently feeling defensive so they don’t get anywhere.

Ultimately I know I can’t change any of this but I don’t know why it hurts me so much each time this happens and how I can move through it?

I was planning on getting loads done today but it’s upsetting and knocks me off kilter. Im now dreading next weekend and wonder if anyone has any advice about how I can possibly do anything to make it feel better?

Thank you if you got this far.

You can't get involved. It's not for you to police. The fact that this is causing physical symptoms speaks of enmeshment possibly. And you seem to see dad as victim and sis as perpetrator so possibly in the drama triangle as rescuer. Maybe time for more therapy or reading around drama triangles and boundaries.

Thank you. Yes I’m aware of drama triangles and I don’t participate at all in their struggles with each other, as I said I don’t talk to one about the other wherever I can and I avoid getting involved or taking sides. I can see they’re both a bit wrong and both a bit right simultaneously, but it’s still painful to see them misunderstand each others intentions so badly.
What can I do with the emotions I feel when this happens?

Tell dsis to grow the fuck up and stop bullying an old man /her df...

Sounds like your sister is very damaged by her upbringing, which your father won't acknowledge. Also sounds like you won't acknowledge the part you're playing either.

You say you don't talk to either one about the issues and yet here you are posting all the details of things that happen between them. So clearly you are talking about it. Otherwise how would you know?

Your DSIS sounds just like my sister. She was similarly cruel to my DF who adopted her as a baby when he married DM and brought her up completely as his own. I never suspected she was not my full sister until I found out by accident in my teens. She was treated exactly like his own biological children and he was a great Dad to us all.

As an adult she decided to cut him dead telling him "you're not my Dad, you're nothing to do with me " and shouted at him when he was ill with Parkinson's. Broke his heart. When he died she just sent an email to my DM saying "condolences for the loss of your husband ".

Your sister is a toxic bully and she is terrorising the whole family with her nasty behaviour. I would advise you to cut her out of your life and support your poor DF while you still have him. He is has done nothing wrong and doesn't deserve this. I cut mine off and it was the best decision I ever made.

I’m sorry for the situation you find yourself in. I will say that I’m probably like your sister in this scenario. My sister and I have had very different childhoods, while living under the same roof and raised by our parents. However, the version of our parents that I got was vastly different to hers. Like you, I have been in therapy for years trying to unpick this very difficult situation and I don’t have answers for you unfortunately. I resent, but accept, that my parents are unable or unwilling to reflect on their abusive behaviour towards me and make meaningful change, I too have very little patience when dealing with them (I’m very low contact). I’ve asked my sister to not talk about my parents to me, as it only ends in an argument, so we can maintain some form of relationship, unfortunately she is unable to do this. You don’t have to answer this here, but what has your sister accused your father of? Maybe the way she is is the only way she can be around him as a result? You possibly feel sorry for your father now that he is an old man and appears vulnerable but your sister was once young and vulnerable and obviously didn’t feel protected by him.

it’s a very tough situation to be in, i imagine it’s hard for you to navigate. Sibling relationships often don’t flourish in the situation you’ve outlined. I’m sorry you lost your mother so young and I hope you and your sister can work something out, independent of your dad.

I know about the things I’ve posted about not by talking to them but by for example being on a holiday that he paid for and witnessing her being sharp and angry towards him.

I know about the cancellation of flights because I asked my dad whether we would see him on the weekend when we were due to travel to meet up and I new my DSis was planning on seeing our dad.

I am not playing a game of “never mention the other ones name in my presence” I am just not expressing an opinion or taking sides when they tell me things.

While I appreciate that there are things that could have been better about our upbringing, I also see the very impoverished circumstances our DF was in when trying to raise us in the Thatcher era and very little in the way of a support network that was a “woman’s thing” back then. No one knew where to put a single dad raising 2 girls alone in the 80s so he was in survival mode, estranged practically from his own neglectful parents and did his best.

I thing the PP who said that these are not circumstances where sibling relationships flourish has hit the nail on the head but I only have a dad and a sister in terms of close family so I’m desperate to keep hold of those relationships because without them I’d be sad that my child would have no sense if belonging and I certainly wouldn’t. It’s complex.

@Chaoticfuckpig it is so sad, the whole situation. There’s no doubt your dad was in a very difficult situation when having to raise you and your sister alone. I literally just have a sister and my parents (I’m married with kids) but I’m essentially estranged from them. It’s very hard and sad but, for me, it was the only solution having tried everything to make it work. I hope things get better for you all.

Do you think that your DS may have undiagnosed ND like your DF? Or maybe a genetic MH condition like your late mother’s?

I was thinking about the ‘rejection sensitivity’ of ADHD.

Read up on enmeshed families - you will learn a lot.

You have all been through a huge compounding traumatic experiences and well done for trying to come to terms with it all and see the grey from the black and white.

I think that there is a young part of you that relentlessly hopes for a happy family and also somehow feels responsible for making this happen? Maybe this was what you endured as a young child and that childish naïveté is still showing up.

Maybe you need more work on the acceptance of what happened, what permanent injuries it left which may not be resolvable - as they are between two people whom you have zero control over. Maybe you need to let go, feel the grief and pain and come to terms and tolerate this situation. This will be tough - to extricate yourself from the emotional enmeshment within your family and you may need lots of self compassion to soothe that very young part of you who doesn’t get her childhood wish.

Your poor sister sounds like she had an awful childhood.

Excellent reply from Glorious. I thought the exact same thing. Your sister sounds like she may be too similar to your Dad. Definitely sounds like rejection sensitivity going on.

Is your sister happy? Could you tell her that you have found therapy useful and put it out there to consider.

Thank you yes there is a level of enmeshment (which I’ve managed through CoDA meetings and literature by Pia Melody/ Melody Beattie) definitely, but also both are very sensitive to rejection which I also know because I’m the only one who has sought a dx of ADHD and done the necessary reading around it.

It is sad that both of them are so stubborn and blaming of the other one but I don’t have to conduct my own relationships in the same way.

I probably do need to just let the poison swirl around me and release it when it makes me feel sad or angry.

I imagine there was a dynamic for me to fix it for them when I was a child so I’m probably being triggered.

I can live in a fantasy that we are now a happy family but no amount of personal self improvement, psychotherapy or knowledge will bring either of them to a place of peace.

I can only draw a bold black line around myself and my energy and wish the pair of them the very best.

This is interesting because although you've talked about your father doing his best, and your sister being damaged, there are very little specifics.

So, for example, if he did his best, but your sister was sexually abused by a family member and you are upset because they won't move on

That's very different to if he did his best but your sister couldn't have all the things she wanted due to finances and you are upset because they won't move on.

I'm interested that your defence of your father is he did his best.

‘What can I do with the emotions I feel when this happens’ you ask. Probably just the same as you have been doing recently- you seem to be doing a very good job of understanding what’s going on and trying to cope with it, although you can’t prevent it and you are repeatedly upset by it.
I think people who have had certain negative experiences growing up can often find these types of hurtful argumentative relationships happening. I think some of us are more deeply hurt and feel more pain when involved in or witnessing this. Ultimately when the pain is too great some go no contact to make it stop.
reading your post, I would encourage you to try to keep your relationships with your DF and your Dsis going, even in a small way. You clearly want to be in a family and you have done a lot to get this far. Maybe the practical choices are important here .. when, where and how you meet, and how you spend the time, could make a big difference to how the event goes possibly.
Remember you can only do your best. And remember it’s hard to reason with an unreasonable person, and some people are unreasonable. It is what it is, and feelings of grievance over who is right or wrong is not going to solve the issues. Better to concentrate on what’s possible in terms of finding a way to meet and communicate which is tolerable.
If it becomes intolerable then you may have to go low contact or no contact or perhaps only see your DF and Dsis separately.

Respect is earned, children are normally very forgiving. Something has gone wrong in your sisters childhood, and by defending your father it would make her more isolated and angry.

Yes your father is old, but he is still her father, the one who gives unconditional love. Childhood trauma is very challenging to get over.

I suggest you talk to him in resolving this. Ask him to show her kindness and love. The first step should be him telling her that he loves her.

I think you sound like you are doing really well in this unhappy complex family dynamic. I don’t think you can make anything better apart from continuing as you are. I’m impressed!

It will definitely stir you up and make you feel sad though. How could it not?

well done! Keep going! Strength to you

Thank you.

There wasn’t sexual abuse but there was a lot of shouting, screaming and when he had partners, it would take up a lot of his attention. One was our step-mother who was incredibly messed up and basically cruel.

There was cannabis smoking and mood swings, being cold, being hungry at times.

We definitely felt like the poor kids at school and to some extent still have issues about the lack of resources, especially now we are older and wonder whether cannabis was prioritised over us having new tights or knickers for example.

I think it’s all a tragic interplay of undiagnosed neurodivergence (both adults and children), the childhood trauma of the adult figures in our lives and possibly the adults self-medicating to get through the sheer grind of single parenthood in the 80s - not to mention the stigma our mother felt when she “left us” due to her mental illness.

It was in some respects a shit show and in practical terms I can see your point about meeting up separately.

I choose to always look at things in a way that makes my life easier to stomach…

I could choose to see my DF as neglectful, unpredictable and scary when he lost his temper, but I choose to see him as a struggling single dad doing his best and I focus on all of the open fires he made, lovely meals, fixing cats in the snow to earn money, borrowing £5 from Christian neighbours to buy food for the week, the beach and camping trips, the literature and music he introduced us to, how hard he worked, how much intolerant judgement he’d have had to endure as a hippy young man who himself was abandoned as a child and was muddling along with two not straight forward children.

Both viewpoints are true but one leads to reconciliation and appreciation of how much he has changed for the better, for it taught me resilience and gave me a good work ethic or I could feel like I need to punish him for the rest of his life for not living up to the perfect idea of a parent through today’s lens.

The former is a position that will render me powerless and keep me stuck in the past. The latter feels like a choice that keeps my mind more open to love.

It’s funny you should say that because completely out of character and against my therapist’s recommendation I did say that to him last night. I said just be soft, tell her you love her with all your heart.

It all hinges on a parent's ability to say sorry without excuses. That will determine if they can have any relationship. Your sister can't adopt your narrative. She has her own. Same as you don't share hers. I'm sure she'd love to not have these feelings. Can you make room for them?

100% @speakball the Dsis was the child in this situation - hopeless, helpless and traumatised - she has no choices.

DF as an adult had options of how to spend his time and money on who and on what. He made poor choices that impacted his DC. He needs to be accountable for that and apologise unreservedly.

She can’t forgive if he doesn’t acknowledge her experiences or apologise for his actions

And denying her reality by refusing to be accountable is also abusive. It's ongoing and isn't just something in the past, it's right in front of her now.

When someone is a child, the adults around them control the food,water, shelter etc that they need to survive.

Reading what you have said objectively, you state that you were sometimes cold and hungry.

You state that you have wondered whether your father prioritised cannabis over your needs.

As a child, your only way to get those needs met is to identify with your father and try to manipulate him. Research shows that children in these situations see the adults as loving and caring even when objectively they are neglectful and abusive.

As a child you try to become what your dad wants so that you can have food, so that you can not be cold, so that he might love you.

When I read your post, it feels like you still identify with your father to some extent.

Your sister, however, clearly does not. She sees him as a neglectful, scary father and also, importantly, someone who is not able to acknowledge the mistakes he made.

Many people in similar circumstances would be refusing to allow him access to grandchildren, and possibly cutting off contact, as objectively he is neglectful and scary and has chosen never to reflect on this and move on.

He hasn't moved on

You haven't moved on

Your sister has.

This sounds like such a hard situation, I’m sorry. It sounds like your sister spent her childhood feeling very unsafe.

My DF had a revolving door of partners that he prioritised above us - most were clueless and some were actively cruel - but the staying in strange houses and waking up to screaming matches really affected me. To the extent that I struggle going to sleep even now as an adult. He too, did his best as a parent and isn’t emotionally insightful.

My dad’s just got a new girlfriend and I surprised myself with how angry I am about it. My younger siblings who had essentially the same childhood have all accepted her but I just can’t. With therapy, I’m trying to practice ‘radical acceptance’ but it’s hard for me, despite being a generally positive, accepting and happy person.

Perhaps your sister feels that if she accepts him, she’s diminishing her own autonomy and giving him power again? Doing things exactly her way enables her to have the power in the relationship (in her eyes), and therefore stay safe?