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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Entire family in denial

29 replies

MrsMacaroon · 08/03/2008 21:07

Would appreciate any feedback/advise any of you have to offer on my it's-almost-funny-it's-so-fucking-awful situation...It's hard to write about so excuse my meanderings.

(and shake....)

Okay- I'm 36 weeks pregnant, married to someone from a similar dysfunctional family and have a DD (2). When I was about 10 my parents had affairs (mum first then dad as revenge apparently) and my dad became an alcoholic (and was for about 20 yrs). I am one of three kids and we only found out that this had happened maybe 5 years later, once dad's drinking was well established and it all came out in a row. Anyway, around the time of the affairs polarva, my dad began telling me night-time stories. He started asking if he could come into the bed as 'daddy's tired too blahblahblah'. I remember him lying in bed with me and feeling almost paralysed...I remember the nightdress I was wearing (it was my first grown up looking silky nightie) and have a hazy memory of being touched across my chest area (was just starting to develop boobs). I remember the lighting being very low and have no recollection of stories being told, certainly not once he was in the bed. The overall memory is of feeling really uncomfortable. After my chest being touched, it's like a light goes off and my next memory is of the same thing happening again the next night. Might have happened twice/three times. Eventually I decided that I didn't want this to go on and the next night he came to my room, the minute I heard him at the door, I pretended to be asleep. I remember peeking and seeing him hovering in the doorway, whispering 'are you awake?'...he hung about for a bit and then left. I did this the next night too until he got the message. This never happened again. As a teenager I always felt he watched me, he seemed t hang around when I was coming out of showers/changing etc and I never wore anything low cut/clingy as if I did I noticed his eyes went straight to my breasts. It was all very non-aggressive/passive though so I never really consciously thought about it...when my younger sister started getting told stories at night by him I became really panicked and would wait outside her room in case I heard anything dodgy (even though I don't think I really had a concept of what he'd done to me- I just felt that she needed my protection). I also once found a photo from a family holiday of me lying on a sun lounger, wearing a swimming costume (lying on my front though) tucked away in one of his drawers.
His drinking was so bad though that that kind of took over- he was always either being chucked out or we were leaving...he was verbally abusive when drunk and me and my older brother were always in the middle of it, trying to sort it all out.
When I was 13/14, I started thinking about what had happened with the story-telling incident and I became really preoccupied with it. I felt I had to tell someone about it or I would go mad. I knew my mum read my diary (would find it open at different page) so I wrote it all down, left it where she would find it and went to school...well, my mum was waiting for me after school with face like thunder. She drove me home before brother and sister could walk there. She shouted at me that I was making it up, my dad would never do that and it was her idea to tell me a night-time story so my story made no sense (eh?). I was to throw my diary in the bin and never talk about it again. I was very upset but resolved to do what she said and just not think about it...dad was pissed all the time anyway so there was enough to be getting on with. I got a boyfriend and invested everything in him. Anyway, I moved out about 20, round about the time I had a nervous breakdown (had been having panic attacks since teens) and got some counselling... got into college and got on with life, met my DH etc.
Dad got sober a few years ago and my parents are still together. Ironically, I was closest to my mum out of all of us- maybe because although I was so angry with her for not protecting me, I always felt really sorry for her, wanted to protect her and 'make her see the light'. Proper co-dependent stuff.
She is very helpful in some ways and kind (although I see now that alot of that is manipulative) and was very keen to help when I had my DD.
I decided when my DD turned two that I couldn't ensure her safety around my dad and started worrying that he might do something similar to her...I decided to confront them and get some counselling.
Needless to say, my mum has responded in the same way- denial/disbelief 'you've always over-reacted', 'you've always been too dramatic', 'he was just drunk and you've misinterpreted his actions', being the standard response...dad denies everything, my sister fell apart and because she's the youngest and prone to anxiety/depression, I have been made to feel guilty for 'involving her' (em, she's involved already, surely, and she's an adult, not a baby), my brother told me that 'it's common to have a sexual tension between father and daughter'...he obviously doesn't believe me and after we spoke, I basically avoided him for a while because I was pretty upset with his response...he turned up at my door accusing me of spoiling his child's first christmas. We've not spoken since.
I didn't speak to my mum or dad for 5 months following the confrontation (by letter). Recently my mum got in touch and asked to see my DD. I agreed she could see her for 4 hours once a week... she takes her out swimming etc. We had a verbal confrontation also where she denied I had told her about the story-telling incident at all (she say I had written in my diary that 'he looks at me funny'), so I'm guessing that's what she is telling my bro and sis...when I asked her why she didn't protect me she said 'you don't need it'. She also said 'It's not what you're saying that's the problem, it's the way you've done it' (ie it's not the alleged abuse, but the way I've gone about confronting it- by letter and refusing to speak to dad after his denial).
The arrangement for her to see my DD has been going on for a few weeks and we are being civil but it's horrid seeing her every week. I want to do the right thing for my daughter and by her not seeing my dad, I thought I'd feel better, which I do, but I still find it so stressful just having my mum in my life at all while she's not only siding with my dad but actually lying about me telling her in the first place. My bro sis and have continued to have a 'normal' relationship with my parents and I see my sis about once a month (but we email most weeks). She doesn't want to get involved at all now and when I tried to mention the confrontation with my mum, she didn't want to talk at all saying 'I think everyone just wants left out of this now- we'll just let you and mum get on with it'. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGGGH!
I'm due to have my 2nd child in a few weeks and we have no-one else around to look after my DD, my sis and mum have agreed to look after her at our house while I'm in labour etc. BUT my DH and I are so sick of the whole thing that we're on the verge of un-asking them and trying to figure out another way of doing it. We're not happy for her to see our DD while she's lying to everyone but aren't sure what to do next...should we just cut her off completely? How can I have a relationship with my sis when she wants to be neutral? HELP!

OP posts:
missingtheaction · 08/03/2008 21:13

blimey, this is a job for the professionals, have no idea what to say.

why would they all think you were overdramatising/exaggerating what had happened?

LadyOfWaffle · 08/03/2008 21:17

I don't really know what to say, but didn't want this to just go by without posting. I can sort of (and in no way am I sticking up for it!) the reasons for the denial, esp. from your mum... maybe she feels guilty? maybe 'siding' with you would either cause problems for her relationship with your dad, or she feels like she is betraying him. I am not quite sure myself though what would be a right way to react, I am sure as hell though denial by them isn't the way, it's not fair and it's cruel. My ex was really horrible to me, but I kept it pretty hidden from my mum - sometimes I would leave a tiny clue to 'test the water', and one time my other ex told her after I took an overdose, but she went along the "over exaggerating/attention seeking" route, so I never mentioned it. Also I was too embarrassed, and also didn't want her to feel bad about 'ignoring' it. I am not sure what to say about having a relationship with your mum etc. if they continue on like they are, but you shouldn't feel you have to just because they are family. IMO being family doesn't give you a free ticket to be nasty etc. {{hugs}} I hope someone posts something that makes more sense for you x

MrsMacaroon · 08/03/2008 21:17

MIA- thanks for just replying- I have no idea why they think that...I've just finished Toxic Parents book and it seems to be a common response when the person doesn't want to deal with it. I've tried to stick only to facts and not overdramatise it on purpose so that they couldn't say that but it's made no difference.

If anything, I underplayed it.

OP posts:
tiredemma · 08/03/2008 21:20

Have you considered counselling?

soapbox · 08/03/2008 21:28

Part of the problem for your family may be that your recollection of what happened is very very hazy.

If it were more factual then there would be more to react to, but as it is it is more of a discussion of how you felt - uncomfortable, hazy, rather than the facts of what happened.

As a complete stranger, unaware of these events, it almost reads as if you yourself are unsure of what happened and the significance of it all.

I think it would be well worth going to a counsellor and working out how to tell your version of events in a way which will make it more likely that your family will take things seriously. I don't want to do the pop psychology thing, but it sounds to me as if you have been sparing with the facts as you recall them, in order not to 'overdramatise' things. But in doing so, you have made it easier for those that should have protected you to avoid the truth

MrsMacaroon · 08/03/2008 21:32

I've had some recently but it was too expensive to continue...I went to GPs to ask for a referral and he gave me a number for 'Incest Survivors' and jollied me out his office...I feel that that's maybe not the most appropriate place to go for me.
I might go back to GP actually but I know there's a long wait for counselling on the NHS even if I do get a referral.

OP posts:
BlaDeBla · 08/03/2008 21:33

You may find the NAPAC website helpful - it's there for survivors of abuse and they also have a helpline. I phoned them recently and they were great. It can be hard to get through so keep trying.

I spoke to my mum about my dad's appalling behaviour (not sexual but abusive none-the-less). She suggested that I keep out of the way. I will do that. It's sad that my father's behaviour means that he won't get to see his grandchildren or his daughter or his son-in-law. My mother's favourite child already avoids them because my dad is so awful.

It is very difficult to break family ties, but it sounds as though you are already considering it. You will need all the help and support you can get. Your gp may be able to suggest local help, and your hv should have some contacts.

PotPourri · 08/03/2008 21:33

I think you need to get some counselling to reconcile this to yourself. And to help you make decisions regarding the relationship going forward and the extent to which you can deal with the perceived betrayal of your mum. And maybe get a bit clearer on what the cause of your memories were - i.e. really did happen as you think, or were fears that became reality in your mind.

A couple of questions - is it definitely just your mum seeing DD when going swimming? And has your sister ever talked to you about the 'bedtime' stories she had?

And on practical side - do you have any neighbours who could step in for the birth? If it was at night, then might be done and dusted by the time DD woke up in the morning. And most neighbours would be delighted to help out someone in labour. Other alternative is to go it along (i.e. no DH with you at the birth). Note, this second option is much harder than you think it would be. Yes, people used to do it on their own as a rule 20 years ago, but when I tried to for reasons I won't go into - we ended up backtracking and asking for help at the last minute (between labour getting 'established' and baby coming). Other alternative is if you have a friend or your sister with you at the birth, rather than DH - so DH could look after DC.

MrsMacaroon · 08/03/2008 21:41

Soapbox- you're right, this is part of the problem...my memories are hazy (I think I've blocked some things out as I've been having strange flashbacks and remembering other moments recently) and I'm wary of making anything up or embellishing just to get people to believe me.
The story incident was the only time he put his hands on me, the rest of it was general creepiness. It's very hard to put that into words or make someone understand how it feels to be watched by your own father.
I just know that I can't take any risks with my daughter though so I had to make a decision and did that knowing that this would be the likely response. It was a risk I was willing to take.

OP posts:
BlaDeBla · 08/03/2008 21:41

this is the NAPAC website and this is the Womens Aid website Some of the information may help you clarify some of your feelings, really really importantly that it IS NOT YOUR FAULT.

soapbox · 08/03/2008 21:46

MrsM - I really think some counselling would help.

I think you are right in protecting your DD. But it is probably also important for you to reach a better understanding of what happened and counselling will help with that. Then armed with that stronger knowledge you can make sure your family understand why you are taking that action.

Is your DD the only grandchild - are there other children who might need to be protected?

warthog · 08/03/2008 21:48

wow, you've been through a lot, and with no support from your family.

i think you're right in trying to find different childcare arrangements for your labour. you don't need the stress of worrying about your parents. is there a close friend who can help?

i don't know what the answer is, but i wonder if it's worth having a bit of space from your mum until you can somehow come to terms with things more? and perhaps the way forward with your sis is to tentatively continue your relationship, avoiding uncomfortable issues until perhaps she's ready to deal with them again?

warthog · 08/03/2008 21:50

i don't believe you have to confront or delve into your memories until you're ready to, which may be a very long time. the important thing is that you know that your dad was very inappropriate and you have to protect your dd. your mum has chosen her path, and she now has to deal with the consequences of that. you don't have to feel guilty for getting a bit of space from her.

LaidbackinEngland · 08/03/2008 21:54

Although whether your father touched your chest whilst you were in bed IS important, it's vital not to let that obscure the real issue - that you were uncomfortable around him generally during your adolescence and that that has had a profound effect on your relationship/s. Definately see if you can get more therapy if it helped before; in some areas you can get reduced rates on a sliding scale from therapists in training( who in my experience are just as good because they are being assessed and are therefore really thorough.)

Therapy can sometimes go round in circles with a "did it happen...didn't it happen" flavour - the fact is ...he made you feel very uncomfortable and panicky - so there was SOMETHING going on - which would benefit from unpicking.

Good luck.

PaulaYatesBiggestFan · 08/03/2008 21:57

some of the advice on here is the reason these people get away with it sorry but this is true

families to 'take sides'

i am so sorry for your predicament mrs mac
please seek help - keep your kids away from him

MrsMacaroon · 08/03/2008 21:59

Pot Pourri- Thanks for that...you've touched on all the main issues that go around and around in my head. The memories are clear enough that I feel I know he behaved inappropriately and not just fears that I kind of 'brought to life'. I have had some counselling and worked through this although I think I need some more help in bringing all the pieces together, if you know what I mean...I sensed at the time that he was seeking comfort from me in a weird way and knowing what I know now about my mum and dad's affairs, I can place it in the same timeframe (ie it was around the time that my mum told him she had an affair). She has always said that she felt telling him about the affair made him start drinking.
To answer your questions- I can't be 100% sure about DD not seeing my dad but we have told my mum explicitly that that is the rule..my DD is very talkative and we felt that she would mention having seen him if my mum tried anything like that. I'm still not totally comfortable with it though and that really stresses me out. I want to do what's best for her but is cutting her grandma out completely the right thing? My DH and I are going round in circles about this just now.
To answer your other question- I initially talked to my sis before confronting everyone to see if she had any similar experiences. She said that he never touched her but she always felt uncomfortable around him, especially when wearing nightie etc... a few of her friends apparently told her they thought he was 'creepy' (they would have been teens at the time). She also once asked me if dad had ever touched me when she was pissed (this was over ten years ago) and said that he just looked but if he ever touched her she would 'fucking kill him'. I reminded her of this and she just swept it under the carpet saying that she now viewed his behaviour as drunken and she felt uncomfortable around him because when he was drunk it was like having a stranger around the house...I think she doesn't know what to think and doesn't want to deal with what I've said happened to me but I can't MAKE her.

OP posts:
babbi · 08/03/2008 22:08

So sorry that you are having such an emotional time when you should just be looking forward to your baby ... Laid back is so right please think about following her advice.

I do know what its like for family to rewrite history in the interest of convenience - our family issue was not that kind of abuse - just I caught my Dad up to no good !! And I dont know if Mum suspected but she took to drinking a lot at that time . anyways Dad gave me a really hard time for ages - I think to ensure I didnt tell Mum.
I protected my brothers who to this day dont know a thing (even though our nearest cousins all know). So Mum and Dad are happy in their old age, brothers and I happily married and the "official" family party line when we refer to that time - is my wild , reckless years ( cant understand why my brothers didn`t see Mum lying drunk continually but there you go ... all family issues down to me being a wild teen ...!)

I am married to a lovely man and we adopted the phrase - my childhood may not have been perfect but its over ...

Not as serious as your difficulties I know but I did get so frustrated at the others going along with the "new version"

Please seek counselling so that you can move on too ...

I wish you all the very best
Take care

MrsMacaroon · 08/03/2008 22:14

Sorry- trying to keep up..

Soapbox- there's another grandchild, a baby boy (brother's)...I feel I can't win with that- my bro doesn't believe me but is angry that I didn't protect his baby (by not informing bro first, I think and 'spoiling his first christmas', allegedly (was FURIOUS when he said that and is the main reason I've not spoken to him since). They are still seeing my mum and dad as far as I know. Have no idea what to do about my brother...he just minimised everything I said when we spoke and got really annoyed when I didn't know how to answer the 'but is he a paedolphile then?' questions he was firing at me.

Warthog- thanks so much for your support. I'm going to look into a friend helping instead. It's tricky cos my best friends all have little ones and live far-ish away. Other friends have jobs and I don't know if they could get a day off to help. My DH doesn't drive (I'm the chauffeur) which really buggers things up too. My sis is saying she can't take any time off anyway so at the minute my mum's the only one really offering but don;t want to be obliged to her at all. Shit!

Laidback- Exactly! I could go over and over the did he/didn't he thing and get no further forward...I know how I felt around him and I didn't get that feeling wiht my older bro or any other male relatives, I wasn't prone to fantasising or lying at all and except for your standard teenage drama, was pretty sane so I have no reason to make anything up.

PYBF- Thanks so much- I intend on keeping my kids away from him. They've definately taken sides which is very hurtful but deep down, I have the courage of my conviction and I sleep at night knowing I'm doing my best to protect my children.

BladeBla- thanks for the links, I'll check them out. x

OP posts:
MrsMacaroon · 08/03/2008 22:20

Babbi- it's horrid to have that total inequality in a relationship... you try to protect people and in return you're the scapegoat. It's the same in my family- it's all just a smokescreen and my dad is managing to hide behind it...he's doing the innocent martyr thing and meanwhile I'm getting shit from all angles. My mum tried to make me feel sorry for him when we last spoke...like I was torturing him.

I'm so f*cking angry with them all I could scream!

OP posts:
MirrorImage · 08/03/2008 23:01

Couldn't not post- your situation sounds so sadly similar to my own.

The main difference being I never told my mother- I couldn't bear what the consequences would have been. Sometimes I blame my mother for not noticing and protecting me.

You have not over-reacted, you are not being dramatic- IT WAS ABUSE, he is in the wrong- You were a child. If your family are siding with him then they are in the wrong too. End of story- a child is NOT to blame for an adult taking advantage of them EVER.

I have never allowed him to be alone with my child, I have never allowed any of my family to be alone with my child, and I never will.
I am lucky we live in separate countries now, and I am not likely to ever visit them.

Counselling will help, though you have to be at the right place in your life to get the benefit IYSWIM.

You need to move on with your life, and protect your children. Cutting them all out seems harsh, but it works.

I really hope you find some solutions, and some peace inside.

The lasting fallout from my abuse is not the damage done to my birth family in terms of dysfunction, but the damage done to my family now- my DH and children- who will never really get to experience the true 'me' the golden person I was before this happened to me.

MrsMacaroon · 08/03/2008 23:32

MirrorImage- It's amazing to hear from someone in such a similar situation. I've always made sure that my dad was never alone with my daughter but a couple of times when my mum looked after my DD, she got my dad to give her a lift to my home...when I found out I felt frantic and that was one of the reasons that I decided to confront. I'd been such a good actress for all these years and since my dad got sober, on the surface, we had a good relationship. It's amazing how you can sit on feelings and exist in a weird limbo. I always had a feeling it would come to this though and my worst fear was that I'd end up in this exact situation. At the end of the day though, I'd rather take the hard route and have the piece of mind that I've protected my children in the way that I wanted and never got.
Thanks for your lovely post- maybe living abroad is the answer! x

OP posts:
MirrorImage · 08/03/2008 23:57

I know what you mean about sitting on feelings for years.

I suppressed the memories for so long...didn't really come out until I was away from home at uni, and could actually let them out of the box, as I was away from parents. I never went back home again once I went to uni. (living I mean not visiting)

I went on pretending and having a vaguely normal relationship with them for years, but that had to change once there were children in the picture.

FWIW, I believe most abuse of children is about power and power relationships in the home not about paedophilia ... but while I think the risk to my children is greatly reduced compared with the risk to me as a child, there is no way on this earth I will be testing this theory.

I didn't have a particularly happy childhood even before this happened to me, but there is a thread on here 'but we took you to stately homes' which I find quite cathartic to read, though have never posted.
Your thread was just so close to my own situation.

MrsMacaroon · 09/03/2008 00:30

MirrorImage- Now that you're memories are no longer suppressed, is everything clear or do you still have blackspots, so to speak?

I also can't pretend any more now that I have my DD- It make me angrier that both my parents felt it was OK to expose me to such poison...I can't imagine not protecting her.

OP posts:
ally90 · 09/03/2008 16:31

Hi MrsMacaroon

Thread here for family abuse.

If you feel your dad was inappropriate with you that is enough to say it is sexual abuse.

Your family all denying it, like you have already read, is normal.

Do you ever hear of a child being damaged by no contact with their grandparents? Parents yes, grandparents, no!

What are the benefits to your family as whole, your dd seeing grandma? You and dh are her parents and its important you look after yourselves. Having an abusive granddad your dd may or may not see through contact with the grandma is not a good situation. You would not be unreasonable to break all contact if you wished it.

I would find someone else to look after your dd and stop your mother taking dd with her anywhere. If she could look the other way when her own children were being abused, and deny it over and over again, then she can do it again with gc. Not saying she would...but can you see where I'm coming from? Supervised visits only. And that only if you can handle her being round. Denial can be very destructive to a survivor of abuse and can effectively continue the abuse to you as an adult.

And finally, you must be the emotionally strong one in your family to stand up to this its not an easy role to take, but believe me...given a choice between denial or the truth I would choose living with the truth every time.

stirlingmum · 09/03/2008 16:49

I am 43. From the age 10 (could be earlier, not sure) till I was 16 I was sexually abused by my Mums husband (can't call him my step-dad - seems wrong).
I have had counselling on and off but the main thing is to realise that it was NOT your fault. You must put the blame firmly on your Dad.
When you look back at yourself you probably see yourself as older and more able to deal with the situation and so more able to take some blame.
BUT, whatever age you were when this happened - You look at a child now that same age and decide whether she is able to handle/deal with the same sort of situation or do you think that they would be to blame for the situation happening.

When I had my first dc I told my Mum everything. There was no way on earth that man would ever meet my children. And he hasn't. I was lucky in a way because Mum divorced him. It was a bit messy at first because he totally denied everything but I was willing to walk away from my whole family if that was what it took.

I was able to move far away from the family home so dont even worry about seeing him.

You must do what you believe is right. If you are not comfortable with your Dad or Mum seeing your dc then DONT. I know that I wouldn't.

Be strong and believe in yourself. You are much better than them. Hugs

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