Family therapy with toxic parents?

[UsualChaos]

NC for this one, in case traceable.
I have a narcissistic father and an enabling mother who have caused much misery in my life (I'm now 50).
Their neglect led to abuse not unlike the contents of a recent big news story, and despite knowing about it at the time they chose to ignore it, which has had lifechanging effects on me. There's other stuff; general emotional neglect, abuse and gaslighting, shaming and jealousy. All the usual toxic parents stuff.
Anyway, I blurted out another abuse disclosure recently when my father was trying to make excuses for men accused of abuse. Both my parents just changed the subject.
I then sent them an email with a link detailing the affect abuse has on victims all their lives, and my father answered with "Interesting, thanks". I was angry by this point and sent back something along the lines of "what's interesting is that I made a disclosure to you last night and you ignored it". He replied suggesting family therapy, "to move things on". I replied that I would consider it but that therapy takes a hell of a lot out of me (I've had years of it myself) and I would need to be sure that they were entering into it in good faith, with a real desire to make changes.
I haven't heard back.
I'm trying to be reasonable and not just reject their overtures, but I've tried so many times over the years to get them to even listen to me talk about this stuff, let alone take any responsibility, and it's like everything I say evaporates into thin air. I've made some ser disclosures and it's like we never had the conversation.
I also know that when my parents had marriage counselling my dad walked out because the therapist was "picking on him".
I don't want to close the suggestion down, but I don't want to re traumatise myself for nothing.
Any advice would be gratefully received.

*serious disclosures

I didn't think therapy was advised with your abusers... which it sounds like your parents are...

You’re not going to get the thing out of it that you want ie them saying sorry, you forgiving them then you all live happily ever after. I’m sorry. You’ll put yourself through hell and they’ll find ways to blame you. These people have shown you who they are. Listen to them. And narcissists aren’t capable of reflection or remorse. A decent therapist would help you to appreciate that.
I’m sorry. I’ve been there and now I am n/c with all of them. Hugs xx

Agree, therapy with narcs or abusers doesn’t work. He’ll gaslight you.

I think you have to stop and re-read your own description of your parents: "a narcissistic father and an enabling mother".

If they are these things, they are not people who are going to change, or apologise, or make amends. Trying to make them understand how you feel or take responsibility for their part in it, isn't going to happen. They are who they are.

I'm sorry, but they're not capable or willing to engage with you in good faith.

I think you would be better accepting their limitations if you want to keep them in your life and manage the relationship by having excellent boundaries and keeping yourself emotionally safe from them. Another option is to limit or end contact.

You can't make them different. I think therapy together would be a terrible idea for you.

Why would you even consider this?

Therapy works if everyone goes in with an open mind and a readiness to work.

Your father is suggesting it so you can be fixed, give up and never mention anything again.

If you have to have any relationship with them at all, and I'd try hard not to, make it as superficial as possible with no expectations.

They are never going to be the parents you would like them to be.

Hi folks, and many thanks for your replies. I suppose I needed to hear what I already thought/knew - but I'm so used to being treated like I'm making a fuss or being difficult.
Do you think there's any merit in trying to do therapy with just my mother? Because she is a victim too in a sense. My father bullies and controls her. But I doubt it would ever happen anyway as he wouldn't allow it and would find a way of making sure it didn't happen, like getting her to refuse.
I try to go as low contact as possible with them, and would go nc if it wasn't for my mother. She is what therapists call 'the safer parent', but still averted and averts her eyes to everything. But she does attempt to have a superficially positive relationship with me, in that we can have a cup of tea and walk about the weather.
I feel sorry for her, but also disappointed that she's continued to prop up his abuse and bad behaviour.
I also have two children and don't want my mother to lose out on a relationship with them, but they are late teens now and can see it for what it is, and will make their own choices soon enough.
Any thoughts?
Many thanks in advance.

Like you say, I doubt he'd allow it - anything that might weaken his hold on her or get her to question things is likely to be seen as a huge threat.

Also, she will have a lot of investment in the status quo, where you're the problem - because the alternative is facing up to just how badly they've let you down. Given her avoidant behaviour, I'm not sure she'd go for it or be prepared to hear you properly.

No, that's exactly it. I have, in the past, told her that she can come and live with me and the children if she wanted to leave him, but she's always refused, despite saying she's very unhappy.
I suppose I have to accept that people make their own choices for a lot of messed-up reasons, and there's not much I can do about it.

Do you think there's any merit in trying to do therapy with just my mother?

Absolutely not.

Your mother is a victim but she is also a perpetrator. At no point has she been able to put the needs of her child first, given the choice she always picks her husband and enables him.

An outright NO NO and NO again to any form of family therapy. It will be a complete waste of time. money and effort. Joint counselling is never recommended anyway where there is abuse of any type within the relationship.

Your parents are who they are and they are not going to change. You need to let go of any and all residual hope either will change and or say sorry because they will not.

Your mother is your Dad's willing enabler (people like your dad always need a willing enabler to help them) and she cannot be at all relied upon either. She also gets what she wants out of the codependent and otherwise dysfunctional relationship she has with her H so she will be most unlikely to leave him. There is nothing you can do to help her; you can only help your own self ultimately and that would entail having nothing to do with either one of them. Its not your fault they are like this and you did not make them that way.

They have their life that they are responsible for. If they want therapy to help them manage anything, it's for them to sort.

You have your life, ditto.

They can't be different. They can't be emotionally open, receptive or engaged with you. That isn't in their skill set, and they have me need or desire for it to be.

Your job is to organise your life around your needs. They don't meet your needs. So you do exactly what you need to look at yourself in the mirror.

In my case, that's having a parent with me every Christmas, ringing every week and being on call for emergencies, and several visits a year (not local).

'Close, loving, honest relationship' isn't an option. It's not in their capacity to do it. Therapy with them is pointless.

Drop the rope they hold out to you.

I would not feel necessarily sorry for your mother at all; she made a choice here and she chose her H over you. She will keep on throwing you under the bus too if opportunity arises out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

Thank you for this - really interesting.
Out of interest, if one of them suffered ill health and there was an expectation that you help, what would you do?
Mine are local. I had moved away but was daft enough to be talked into moving back when pregnant because they wanted - allegedly - to be hands on grandparents. They didn't. They just liked the idea of it.

She has, to date, broken every promise or commitment she has made to me. You're right, of course.

I can't think what she gets out of it, apart from not having to work and having a big house; but I suppose that's enough for some people. And he's well respected in his field of work, so there's status too, I suppose.
Thank you for your responses, much appreciated.

Out of interest, if one of them suffered ill health and there was an expectation that you help, what would you do?

I would be going seriously low contact now, in anticipation that this is exactly how they would behave.

Get on with your life, have fun, make it full and busy so there is absolutely no space for them.

Out of interest, if one of them suffered ill health and there was an expectation that you help, what would you do?

I'd be busy and unreliable. I would avoid arguments, but be hard to pin down and hard to get hold of. Again, care is their need and their responsibility.

Your need and responsibility is to face yourself in the mirror having balanced your own needs with those of your partner and children, then your parents with what is left over.

So make the phone call, research the carers, speak to the doctors. Don't miss child pick up, club or parents evening. You have to do what's sensible and efficient, not what they most want you to do.

It's amazing how much they will let you do, and how many other people can be inconvenienced, before they are inconvenienced.

I was helping a variety of people in lockdown who thought I'd go to five different shops for their shopping, thus increasing exposure for me and my family plus all the other shoppers and workers, rather than get a different brand from their usual.

Your parents are co-dependant. You Mum plays her part to facilitate the abuse and your Dad delivers.

They are both abusers.

Stop trying to save them. Stop letting them abuse you.

I would go completely no contact with them both. I did with mine.

I’m always bemused at people sending their parents details of abuse during childhood and beyond.
If your df is narcissistic then he won’t believe or care what you write.
My dm frequently complains about her frankly awful childhood but never mentions how she treated her own dc.
Of course everyone deals differently with past trauma.
However other than a getting it off your chest letter it’s really, imo, much more damaging to you to have your complaints ignored or cast aside.
For myself I am fortunate to have siblings and that’s where we all have a rant to each other.
I wouldn’t engage with your parents.
I certainly wouldn’t waste head space on someone who doesn’t care.

Sigh, yes, I know.
There is an element of getting it off my chest and just wanting it said. And I suppose there's something deep down that thinks that if I only say it in the right way or at the right time, I'll get a better response.
I have two children and if one of them came to me with something like this, I'd do anything to try and help them through it.
I don't have siblings or a partner, but do confide in one friend who has experienced this. But it's a lonely place...

Having parents like that is really hard. No expert, just when people get to therapy, they have tried everything else before therapy.

Attempting that with your mum or that safer parent could backfire because you'd be taking away her victim status. Then that would force her to take responsibility for her life which she may find hard to do or just isn't interest in doing

Are you truly able to move forward on your own? If so, that's the part you may succeed in.

If you have no other choice but be there for their unpleasantness, devise a plan or how to shield yourself from it all.