Was this a toxic relationship or was I in love?

[McFlies]

There is something from my past I feel that I need to understand and settle for myself. Sorry if this is long.

A few years ago, I had a relationship with someone and I have been sick ever since. Depression, anxiety, some signs of PTSD.

It was a same sex relationship, although I wasn't (until then) gay.

She was a friend of a friend and I met her when she moved in to a shared flat at the time. I was very lonely, I have ASD and am not really great with making friends and she was incredibly friendly to me.

Right away she gave me lots of attention and wanted to do everything I wanted to do and go everywhere with me, and she brought me into her group of friends and I suddenly had a really exciting social life which I really enjoyed and which made me feel good. I'd never really had that before, so I really enjoyed the life. She bought me gifts and cooked my favourite foods and listened to me moan a lot (I have ASD so can do that a lot).

I really felt like I'd found my absolute, total best friend.

As we spent more time together she told me she'd been abused, and I identified with that because I had a sad childhood myself. We seemed to have so much in common and the intimacy grew really quickly to a point she felt like I'd known her my whole life within about 8 - 10 weeks. The relationship also involved a lot of drinking. She drank a hell of a lot, so I just joined in.

Then one night when we were quite drunk she started rubbing me and so on, and although I was reluctant we ended up having sex. I felt weird about it because I'm not gay, but it felt nice and I felt very attached to her. The next day I told her that really I wasn't into women and asked if we could just be friends. She said that was fine and she understood.

She pulled away though a bit and said she was moving out of the flat, which she did and I felt really torn. The friendship and intimacy was so important to me and I felt really lonely, so when she asked me over to dinner at her new place a couple of weeks later, I went. Got drunk, and had sex with her again, and this time stayed the weekend.

I really didn't want a relationship with her romantically, but I didn't want her to go away. So I carried on. Every week I'd have sex with her, which felt nice and I enjoyed it but I am fundamentally not gay so I didn't feel it would become a long term thing and so it was confusing.

She started to then put pressure on me to be her "girlfriend". A lot of demands and really quite frightening tantrums. Within a few weeks, she would get really drunk every time we went out and start screaming at me that she loved me and why was I doing this to her. I started to really walk on eggshells because the tantrums were actually scary and often involved smashing my stuff or doing things which really scared me like drink driving.

Each time she had one of these episodes (which was basically every week) I would be pretty traumatised. I think this is why I now have PTSD because she was really scary. Sometimes she would trap me in places and not let me out, sometimes she would put herself in danger and sometimes she would threaten to "out" me as a lesbian and she said I was abusing her and using her.

I kept saying I just wanted to be best friends, but I would always keep going back and kept having sex with her. I really enjoyed the cuddling and companionship and when it wasn't there I felt terrible. She kept saying she loved me and wanted to be together and why didn't I love her back and got very angry.

She pressured me a lot with everything. If I didn't do what she wanted, I knew there would be a tantrum, and these were escalating and escalating and becoming more dangerous and I started having some anxiety illnesses. Afterwards she would always be really sorry and cover me in attention and affection and I didn't have a Mum or anyone else really to speak to in life, so I felt I needed this.

In the end things escalated to a point they couldn't continue. My boss had words with me because she was showing up to have tantrums at my work, and I was off sick a lot because of it. My flatmate had said he thought she was a psycho and I had to get away from her. I'd seen the GP for my anxiety and been referred for counselling and the counsellor told me she was really psychologically dangerous and highly manipulative and I had to leave.

So after one of the very worst tantrums, I did leave and I completely stopped seeing her cold turkey. She harassed me for weeks after this and alternated between sending me love letters and gifts, to making calls to threaten me and hanging up. She tried contacting my family and work to make my life miserable and I got very, very sick from stress. During that time I was so scared of her I just wanted her to go away, but I also really missed her.

My brain found it really hard to process, because there was two versions of her: the lovely one I needed and was best friends with and the terrible one who did terrible things and scared me. I often felt really confused and when my counsellor or flatmate said negative things about her I felt defensive of her.

When she got a new girlfriend, which was fairly quickly, I was devastated. She showered all the same attention on her which she'd given me and she was blasting on social media how in love she was within about a week. I felt like nothing, and that time was the worst I have ever felt. I felt like actual physical pain and didn't think anything but seeing her would relieve it.

Things eventually got a little better, and she wrote me a letter to say she'd only been so crazy because she loved me and I wouldn't give her a full relationship. So a part of me has always wondered if I did the wrong thing. I'm not gay and don't feel romantically attracted to women, but I felt almost addicted to her and I really don't understand why. She made me feel so good, so I wonder, did I get it wrong and was this love?

Over time, I stopped contact and got on with my life, but I never really felt happy again since. I am anxious all the time and never feel relaxed ever. I am very depressed and everything I used to enjoy I can't enjoy anymore. I am very jumpy, and got lots of physical ailments and my immune system is kaput. I am miserable.

This was all a couple of years ago and I wonder sometimes what really happened. My counsellor at the time said it was a toxic or abusive relationship and she had groomed me when I was vulnerable and that's why I felt such a powerful need for her. Part of me wonders though that if I felt such a powerful need for someone and deep connection, did I make a mistake by not being with her and giving her what she wanted?

@ThisWormHasTurned

Yes. I spent a lot of time reading and I can see now what happened was "love bombing"

• appearing to share all my interests (even really bizarre ones)
• wanting to spend every waking moment with me (even by 5am runs!)
• endless compliments
• hanging off my every word
• gifts
• favours
• wanting to know everything about me
• telling me really personal things about her being abused in the past (although I am unsure on that as she claims I abused her and I don't think I did)
• immense jealousy if i spoke to others or went somewhere without her
• intense declarations of love after a few weeks

I see now that isn't "best friends" it's probably just false.

I can see if she had genuinely cared about me then she would have cared when I was sick, and not gone out of her way to harm me and make me scared.

I also read a bit about manipulation and see she did all of that with me too. Everything was my fault, everything she got was through fear or making me feel guilty. Always making me believe she would hurt herself.

She never took any responsibility for the truth which was that I really did tell her throughout the whole thing that I only wanted to be her friend.

It doesn't sound healthy but it doesn't sound like abuse to me either. many relationships happen because one person is attracted to another person's money, lifestyle, social circle, social status and so on - rather than because they are a good match. You were attracted to what she brought to your life in terms of a sense of belonging and a social life - you tried a relationship with her, it didn't work and ended badly. These things happen but you do need to accept that you had agency here. Her showing a lot of interest in you and the things you are interested in is not uncommon when people have strong crushes on others. I would recommend you get some counselling so you know your own mind better and can avoid getting into situations like this again. From what you have described, you did have agency here and if you start to form a narrative where she is an abuser and you were a passive victim you will not learn how to manage situations like this better in the future.

Thank you. I am really trying to manage the anxiety, depression and PTSD following the relationship as it obviously makes life very difficult, and to understand the strange feelings I had at the time in terms of being desperate for someone I didn't either want, or at times particularly like.

"it ended badly" doesn't account for all that.

I agree entirely that I had agency and should have stopped seeing her as soon as she made obvious she had different wishes than I did, and I agree with her that I hurt her - which is why I was okay at the time with accepting all the blame.

In hindsight though, I think it was also made clear to her throughout that I didn't want what she wanted and she had agency to leave. That is an alternative to stalking, violence, threats and trying to ruin someone's life.

I can see how you got in to that situation, how enticing and attractive she and her life were to you. But she took advantage of you, manipulated you, threatened you, abused you.

Whatever your feelings were, hers certainly weren't loving. Would you treat someone you love like she treated you? I suspect not.

When you love someone, you treat each other with respect, kindness, support, trust and care. You don't threaten, shout, tell lies about them, try to out them, coerce them in to sex, make other people stop being frieds with them. She sounds dangerous, and I'm glad you're away from her now. I hope you can get the help you need to work through your (entirely understandable) stress that resulted.

Whatever your feelings were, hers certainly weren't loving. Would you treat someone you love like she treated you?

No. I would not do any of those things.

This is what love bombing does. It seems wonderful, but it’s a form of emotional abuse - and in a way it’s one of the most insidious, toxic forms. It creates a fantasy bond, because someone is embodying all you wish and dream for. Then she basically slowly groomed and used you in ways that weren’t your choice.

the love bombing creates an image of her as a wonderful, very close person, so that when the awful temper tantrums and things happen, you still have the strong association of her with this wonderful, very close person, and you cannot see the actions for quite how awful they truly are. You even did physical things you didn’t really want to do, not deep down (and using alcohol as a way to silence your judgment and inhibitions is also abuse.)

people who have been molested can very often feel confused and complicit because it can feel good, not painful. The body can get turned on. It’s just what our bodies do. You still weren’t on board.

so this is extremely clear abuse - all of it - and I am absolutely not surprised that you’re still confused, was this love, or was this toxic?

this was toxic. It was a cycle of emotional and physical abuse.

those of us who are autistic are at higher risk for these kinds of relationships, because we say what we mean. So we think others do, too.

She was extremely harmful and abusive and I’m so glad you are not in contact with her. The longer you are out of contact, the more the love bombing spell will fade, and you’ll begin to be able to see more clearly.

love isn’t fast and instant, and anyone you think you know really well or are very close to so quickly is a huge warning red flag!

glad you are free of this. Wishing you healing. NONE of this was your fault or anything you did- she’s just unhealthy.

Can I ask have you tried to see it from her side? For her, she doesn’t sound very stable, but also as you kept sleeping with her the messages must have been mixed and been a head fuck for her.

my opinion is it was toxic from both sides.

Gosh what a terrifying thing to happen.

You just wanted a good friend and she took advantage of that.

She sounds like she was a total psychopath tbh. Echo those who say grooming.

You were vulnerable because you were feeling lonely. She used that to exploit you.

First she made you feel she too, had had similar history...that you two had 'so much in common' and understood one another. Thus building a bond faster through the idea that you had shared experiences.

Then she gave you the high of inviting you into her friend group. Showing you what life 'could be like' with her. Also - Making you fear that that could be taken away without her.

Then she got you drunk and took advantage of you being drunk. And then used intimidation, along with the threat of losing a best friend and a new found social life should you say 'no' to her demands.

She was never your friend and she never loved you (that is not to say you are not worthy of friendship and love btw, only, that she wasn't capable of those things). She was a psychopath who wanted to own you. You escaped. Well done. It could actually have been much worse by the sounds of things. Not that it wasn't awful already.

Id echo pp on doing the freedom program. It can be done online.

I'd also work on learning how to spot narcissists (npd) and similar. Doctor ramani on YouTube is good for learning about them.

Never be quick to trust people who try to get too close to you too fast. Whirlwind people are seldom genuine. And often, dangerous

@Janieforever

Yes, she believes it was entirely my fault and I believed that myself for a long time. However, I am now the one with depression, anxiety and PTSD and she's fine. So perhaps I am not the abuser.

My counsellor at the time told me that I gave her the information with complete clarity, and she had a choice to accept it or not, and coercing me or engaging in abusive behavior isn't an acceptable way to try and get what you want.

@Newnamehiwhodis thank you immensely for explaining that. It is indeed very hard as I see myself as complicit and guilty of wrongdoing to - clearly - someone who had vulnerabilities of their own.

You really do need edmr therapy for trauma. Google it. It’s very effective.

@Pinkbonbon

Thank you. At the time, people suggested various things to me and I watched various videos and read various things. She didn't seem to fit at all with narcissism. She had very low self esteem. She seemed to fit a lot better with borderline personality disorder.

I did read up a lot of psychopathy. There was a book that was very good on how they manipulate you and I have to admit it was pretty textbook. There was about 100 things to look for and she did about 90 of them.

However, I find it hard to see her like this because she was so normal at first. She held down a good job and so on. All her friends see her as normal. Even with the worst behavior (and her friends got involved at times when she was attacking me or having one of her fits) they seemed to put it down to "she's emotional and has drunk too much". But with hindsight I am not sure that's "normal" for "emotional and drunk too much".

Like for example breaking into my house, .showing up at my workplace many days in a row, calling my family (who didn't know she existed) using false identities. Some of it was clearly pre-meditated and planned. None of that is "emotional" really is it?

I realised after getting to know her that her amazing friend group was actually just acquaintances she'd met at the pub. None of them knew her a year before. Now, her friend group seems to be a different one. I remember thinking this was odd because she would gush at the time about people being her "best friend", but a lot of it seems to be for show.

Everything pp's have said it's true. It was not a loving relationship. But she sounds damaged and clearly has her own deep psychological wounds, which her behaviour to you and relationship with you were meeting some need of, were a symptom of that.
So whilst what she did was not in your interests, nor coming from a good place, she is probably not capable of that.
So it's ok to not believe she could have been nice and chose not to be... More likely she is not able to offer a good relationship at all and maybe even has no concept or self awareness of this, hence her point of view.
It's good you managed to get out as happiness could never be found with someone like that sadly.
Hopefully she will find a way to heal to a point where she can enjoy a healthy relationship.
And hopefully you can too, you sound so thoughtful and your reflections are so constructive I really think you stand a good chance of coming through this stronger and wiser, ready for a new chapter. I would be proud of you if you were my daughter.

Thank you so much @PimpMyFridge . The thing is that I am not gay, so nothing was really going to change that I didn't feel romantic about her. I felt caring and loving towards her but more like a Mum or a friend. I didn't have fantasies of kids and a life together because I am just not gay and trying to be didn't work.

That was a very kind thing you said at the end of your post. Thank you.

I realised after getting to know her that her amazing friend group was actually just acquaintances she'd met at the pub. None of them knew her a year before. Now, her friend group seems to be a different one. I remember thinking this was odd because she would gush at the time about people being her "best friend", but a lot of it seems to be for show.

That seems like quite a narc behaviour - idealise, devalue, discard - so she dazzles people into quick friendships and relationships, but never keeps them, either because they become disillusioned, or she does.

Did you look into covert narcissism? I thought covert narcissists do appear to have low self-esteem - insecurity, put themselves down, sensitive to criticism etc?

She could present with narcissistic behaviour without being an actual narcissist iyswim, in that she's carrying her own baggage and acting in the world from that place.
Or she could be inherently wired that way, who knows.
But the fact she sees this troubled relationship dynamic as being on you, doesn't mean it's true, she isn't seeing the world through clear honest vision, but through a prism of built from her own skewed experiences and difficulties.
I hope your own natural and understandable desire for a deep and meaningful connection with someone can be met in a wholesome way in the future.
Wishing you well.

@category12 I read about that yet but it didn't seem much like her. Female psychopath or borderline personality seemed to fit a lot better.

There were certain things that I think crossed a line from being abusive into being a bit psychopathic to be honest.

One thing that sticks in my mind is that towards the end I was really ill. I had terrible anxiety and chest pains and I'd lost a lot of weight and to be honest I felt like I had a nervous breakdown. I think I was very fragile indeed, and I am not neurotypical, so if I get like that it's quite scary and I don't really have much support.

Aside from her I only really had one quite good friend that I could lean on for support, so she knew that, and she contacted this person on social media (she didn't know them) and said she was a concerned friend - so it was done under the guise of support for me.

Then she basically told this person things (mostly completely untrue) that would make this person hate me. Really horrible things, so clearly the objective here wasn't concern for me, it was trying to go out of her way to remove the only possible source of support from me that she could.

I find that very dark indeed.

I see that throughout, she tried to isolate me. She would often tell me people didn't like me or had said horrible things about me.

I think she got enjoyment from causing me pain and illness.

That's awful. She was abusive as heck. Never doubt that.

Bloody hell.
I think it is no wonder you've been traumatised by this.
She was a huge threat to you and you were being made to doubt that. Even half if what you've described would be upsetting enough. I hope your have been able to tell this other good friend these things were untrue and be believed. I hope that friendship has survived this.
I think most people would struggle to handle this person because she had you enmeshed before you even saw what sage was about... You couldn't have seen it coming and once in, tough to get out.
All your responses were human and understandable. You are now bringing a lot of intelligence to trying to understand what's happened here, this is such a good thing that you have that inclination and ability to face what's gone on because this way you stand a chance of forgiving yourself for any perceived fault and recognising that some people are deep trouble and that's not your fault.
We all want to belong somewhere don't we.

Tbg it sounds more like her EXCUSES present her as a borderline personality. But you have to look not just at what she SAID (as an excuse, after treating you like shit) but also at what she DID.

Now, borderline pd can of course present as highly manipulative. But I would argue she was likely co-morbid (bpd and npd). This is very common. I can't remember the stats off the top of my head but I think it was something like 20% at least.

Not all narcissists present as having high self esteem.

She certainly had high levels of malignancy no matter what was going on.

But you don't ignore someone's boundaries and push for sex with them unless you also have very high levels of narcissim too imo.

Either way, read up on all the cluster b personalities and ways to spot them. And keep reading and learning throughout your life from time to time. There's a ton around and unfortunately if one has weeded their way into your life for a fair period of time...there will likely be more you'll have to spot fast, or they'll do the same.

@PimpMyFridge

I hope your have been able to tell this other good friend these things were untrue and be believed. I hope that friendship has survived this

Thankfully yes. She said when she first got the message out of the blue she thought it was genuine. It said "sorry, I don't know you but I am really worried about McFlies, can I get your number so I can call and talk privately?" then apparently she did, and during the call said that I had narcissistic personality disorder and was abusive and so on etc. but in a very kindly way, almost as if she was a very concerned friend. My friend said she found it really disturbing and felt "icky" during the call so she called me with all the information and I told her what was going on and she is the one who suggested the woman was a psychopath. She said she spoke to her for only an hour and came away feeling mentally confused and sucked in by her superficial charm, but realised what was said was nefarious in nature and it alarmed her.

I think most people would struggle to handle this person because she had you enmeshed before you even saw what sage was about... You couldn't have seen it coming and once in, tough to get out

I really didn't see it. I feel a bit of an idiot.

Thank you.

@Pinkbonbon I understand BPD doesn't make you a bad person - I know someone else lovely who has BPD, but what struck me as very central to her character was extreme mood swings, hypersexuality, extremely reckless behavior and also a very deep desperation to be loved. I want to be loved too, and at times it feels desperate, but this was very different. It was like a tantrum: WHY DON'T YOU LOVE ME??? Which all sounded very BPD.

@Pinkbonbon

Then she got you drunk and took advantage of you being drunk. And then used intimidation, along with the threat of losing a best friend and a new found social life should you say 'no' to her demands

This is where I doubt myself a lot. No, before and since her I don't drink a lot. With her, I was drunk A LOT and extremely drunk too. But she didn't force it down my neck, she just made it feel fun and I enjoyed it.

Something I am also very ashamed of is how much I enjoyed "the life". I had never had a life anymore where every Thursday "we" did this, or felt in a "gang" of sorts and it felt really nice. Like a sitcom if that makes sense, and being autistic you feel on the outside of things so often.

The minute I ended things with her, I was uninvited from everything. No more barbecues, no more Thursday game nights, no more pub quiz team. I was OUT. And when I did run into people they looked at me like shit - obviously been told things.

Also because over several months she had become the person who spent literally every waking minute with me, I really didn't have anyone else at all. And as I am autistic, my "routines" are very comfortable and safe. So if I am used to going for a run with someone every day at 5am and then they have breakfast with me and then we go to x,y,z, then NOT doing that makes me feel really stressed and overloaded.

So it was selfish, and I am ashamed by that. It had become "my life" and a life I really liked in a way I had never liked life before and there was a dependence on her for basically meeting all my needs (selfish, sorry) but she did. So I wonder to what extent that made me feel so ill after it ended. She was so enmeshed with my life (which she demanded to be and got very angry if I did anything without her) so it was just very extreme.

Ohh this resonates with me. I’m Autistic too and got sucked in to a similar dynamic myself. I highly recommend checking out Caroline Strawson and her resources. I think you’ll find them helpful.

sorry something similar happened to you. Someone else recommended her so I will take a look