coping with my mother

[ThePiglet]

have posted on here before about my mother (under a different username) - please no advice to go NC with her, as that isn't going to happen.

I am an only child. My father died last year. My mother has a limited social circle based largely on people she works with or late friends of my father's. Being charitable, I think she is neurodiverse and/or is suffering the long-term effects of being neglected as a child herself (she had a pretty rubbish childhood) .

Growing up, she could be very negative, and was very critical of my father to me, which I struggle with resentment over. She can be extremely negative and unpleasant about people unnecessarily - e.g. she referred to a girl I went to university with, who was slightly on the plump side as a "lump". She uses complaining and criticism as a means of making conversation and of expressing complex emotions. She either does not notice the effect it has on me or cannot stop herself from doing it.

I get that everyone needs a vent from time to time, but this is low-level constant, and I find it really difficult to handle. The curious thing is that she cannot take anyone doing it in return to her - e.g. I once thought 'beat her at her own game' and after a very difficult visit from my mother in law tried to do it to her - and she literally said to me 'you shouldn't say that about your mother-in -law!' - another time I called her to tell her about how stressed I'd been after spending a hot summer's day in A and E with a toddler and she told me I needed to get over it.

She struggles to engage with or respond to certain social cues. It's kind of hard to explain. e.g. we were out with her one day with my toddler, and she was filming on her phone, and then he started a tantrum over something and she just carried on filming and I have to spell out to her while dealing with a screaming toddler "please stop doing this". I went abroad with her for a few days last year to see a sick relative and everytime I FaceTimed my family she'd be sitting next to me getting her face right in the camera and talking until I wanted to scream at her, just let me talk to my son and my partner for two fucking minutes, I'll invite you over to say hi, I just want to be able to chat myself.

We are going on holiday with her for two weeks (I KNOW) and I'm feeling extremely 'triggered' because yesterday she was moaning about how last year it was difficult to book one of the restaurants at the hotel - but we managed it! and this year we are staying at a different hotel in a different country!

I've spent years trying to let this wash over me, but I find myself getting snappish with her. What I really want to do is spell out to her that her complaining has had a terrible effect on me, and I'd rather that she didn't do it, but she is a frustrating combination of sufficiently obtuse that I can't just hope that she'll pick up on a non-engagement or a hint and full of rejection sensitivity dysphoria so any sort of blunt or direct comment is devastating to her.

there is a lot of room between passively accepting a behaviour and going NC

did you try just stopping her in her tracts? She's an adult and you can tell her to stop moaning - it doesn't even have to be super serious response. If she starts being bitchy about someone's tell her to stop playing a mean girl, if she starts moaning about booking a restaurant tell her you'll order her McDonald's and call it a day if she won't stop complaining

it takes time and persistence but I've learned that with time people eventually change the behaviour because they don't like being told off

For the holiday, how about the grey rock approach? Don't really react to it? Just kind of ignore her. I do this with my MIL and it works really well. I just say 'oh yes' and nod or 'you may be right' and carry on. I make a very conscious effort to not let her get to me.

Then I would not book any more holidays with her and reduce contact as much as you can.

Your mother had a choice when it came to you and she’s basically chosen to inflict onto you what was done to her. She could well go to harm your child in not too dissimilar ways as to how you’ve been harmed. She’s never wanted nor actually sought the necessary help. Rather than thinking of her as being neurodiverse have you instead considered she could well have some form of untreated - and untreatable - personality disorder/s?.

Why is going no contact not an option here?. Genuine question.

Would you tolerate this from a friend?. Why are you going on a holiday with her at all given how she has behaved previously?. I can only assume that you are mired in fear, obligation and guilt when it comes to her. What are your boundaries like here when it comes to your mother?. Talking to her about her behaviour will get you nowhere because such disordered of thinking people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Her pretty rubbish childhood is no excuse nor justification as to how she has treated you and in turn your child. I would also think your partner cannot abide her and perhaps wonders why you at all bother with her now. Women like your mother do not change and you can only change how you react to her. Grey rocking is a good short term technique but it’s really not possible to have a relationship with someone like your mother. Do you still seek her approval and perhaps still hope even now that she will change and or say sorry?.

Is the big reaction to any criticism or push back her way of manipulating you?

If you are feeling so anxious about being with her, why are you going?

I'm going through similar things myself at the moment with my mother. I really feel for you. Its very hard. I've tried to have countless conversations with my mum about how her behaviour effects me but she is not receptive at all and will just gaslight me. Just calls me oversensitive or basically implies I'm bullying her and she's afraid of my temper etc... which is just awful because she soends all day belittling me and anyone around me I seem to like and anything I seem to like and being openly antagonistic and hostile... then if I react she acts absolutely shaken like im the worst person in the world.
And people like this just do not change. She doesnt want to know or care about how she effects you. The only persons emotions who are important to her are her own.
I'm sorry you are going thru this.
I can only say that you should never feel ashamed or like its your fault. Make boundaries and dont be guilted or manipulated into loosening them. She could work on herself to become a more emotionally healthy person but she chooses not to. That is not your responsibility.

No contact isn't an option because I love her, because she is very kind and loving otherwise, and she is good company when she isn't being awful. I'm going because she lost my father last year and is horribly lonely. She loves my son and she gets on well with my DP. She broke off contact with her mother, and her own mother broke off contact with her grandmother. I am determined to beat the cycle.

The reaction isn't "big" - it is outwardly quite small, and I don't think anyone other than me would pick up on the scale of her hurt, but I am hypersensitive to her emotions.

She sought therapy before I was born, but it was evidently insufficient.

I've grey rocked her complaining for years, but it's had not effect on it.

talk to her, especially because you love her and because she most likely loves you - there is a strong motivation on both sides to make it work

tell her it upsets you, remind her about it each time she does it, she will probably get annoyed at first but with time the behaviour may change

Example of her behaviour: I mention going out for dinner at a certain restaurant years ago. Literally four years ago. Context is she would like to go there, so I say "Oh yes X and I went there in 2018". Restaurant was opposite one which she liked and knew the people who ran it. Her reaction is "why didn't you go to [the one opposite]?" and when I react - not angrily, just saying - with slightly exagarrated patience "because I wanted to try that one, for a change" her response is "I'm only joking". It's not a joke. It's not a serious thing, just a completely unnecessary snipe at me, followed by a dig for being irritated by it.

She definitely loves me. Without a shadow of a doubt. She just does not understand how to make conversation.

but how do I raise it, if her only responses are "only joking", not engaging or hurt?

@ThePiglet in scenario like this don't let it slide, say "no, it wasn't a joke, you know very well you were not joking, do you think it's reasonable to expect people to only ever go to one place?"

pull her up on this sort of stuff, it is absolutely exhausting for both sides and for that reason it often works. After awhile people will rather bite their tongue than say another snarky thing

dont accept the excuse, just keep pulling her up on it, yes she will get hurt at first, then possibly annoyed and eventually she will probably learn by association that saying certain things leads to her feeling bad and getting told off

for context, my mum is a kind of person who always tries to suggest bad intentions in people. I began just cutting her short and saying "stop baiting an argument" - it took ages but she has learned that starting these comments with me is pointless because I won't engage and call her out.

OP, your post really resonated with me. I've got a very similar relationship with my mother.

She loves me and my siblings, and my DC, very much (too much? Motherhood was/is a huge part of her identity) and can be enjoyable company, but she is also extremely negative and bitchy and very poor at social cues. She often says very odd things and has a habit of inappropriate oversharing.

She had a pretty awful childhood herself and then a terrible marriage to my father, and she was far to emotionally dependant on me when I was young. I cannot remeber a time when I haven't felt responsible for her emotions, which I feel a lot of resentment for because it really impacted me as a child and teen.

To her credit, she has in recent years shown some degree of self awareness and I think does try to moderate the moaning, but without much success. And she is hypersensitive to criticism - she cannot cope with it at all and exaggerates any minor remark and becomes extremely upset and self-hating. So there is no talking to her about anything.

To be honest I've given up hoping for or expecting her to change, and just manage the best I can.

Adult children are programmed to love their parents anyway, no matter how crap or abusive they actually are. Call her out on her behaviour every single time by saying, “did you mean to be so rude?”. Then you walk away.

When has she really been kind and loving towards you?. What was she like around your dad, did he know what his wife was like and excused her behaviour too?.

What message do you send your child when his nan behaves like this towards you?. She will start on him soon enough when he does something that displeases her whilst you are looking on so the toxic crap will affect him as well. I would also assume your mother has no friends, am I correct?. There’s good reason why women like your mother have no friends, she drives people away by her actions. You’re probably the only person who really bothers with her and that’s because she’s conditioned you to put her first with your needs dead last. Such people are really not worth the bother.

Toxic parents tend to be very sensitive to criticism. They can give it out but whenever they are challenged their inability to control emotion leads to emotional outbursts and unpredictable erratic behaviour.

I have a mum who I would never be friends with if we weren't family! Sounds awful, i know. I love her. She's my mother. She fed me. Clothed me and Kept me routined and safe. But her opinions and the way she sees life is something I completely do not relate to. When I had my daughter in 2015 I was hit with the realisation she hadn't emotionally ever given Me the love I needed. It was one of them moments of realising she always put me down. Harsh comments on weight. Hairstyles. The way my house looked. She made me feel ashamed for having any emotions and growing up crying on her shoulder was never an option. Any time my life contained emotion she made me feel absolutely pathetic for it.

It took me a long time to process it. Having my son in 2017 helped. She had 4 girls and it felt like I had something she wasn't an "expert" in. I think for me that was the turning point. I learned to massively keep back and now I rarely visit or call. Its all polite between us, but she's continued the negative cycle on my kids which also made me distance myself back. She complained my shy one was hard work and my confident one was too much. I just try do my own thing. Unfortunately I still feel at 34 the same stress about telling her certain things.

What do you get from this relationship?
Does she support you at all?