Do controlling abusers always know they are controlling abusers?

[Toomuchdinner]

On the verge of splitting with DH. I have only extremely negative feelings towards him.

He is controlling, aggressive, self absorbed, I think possibly abusive…I could go on.

The reaction of friends and family to the news I am leaving him makes it clear that they all feel the same way about him.

Basically I made a huge mistake and married a total arsehole. They all hate him. Really really hate him.

The thing that I’m finding difficult is his total denial that he is anything less than perfect. And he’s not lying, he genuinely thinks he’s wonderful , and that everyone else thinks he’s wonderful.

His lack of self awareness is staggering.

I’m not saying he has to hate himself, but he keeps demanding I give him reasons why I want to leave.

so I mention some of his terrible behaviour, and he is really confused- he just doesn’t understand or agree. I know him, he honestly isn’t pretending or conniving.

i think he has something fundamentally wrong with him.

has anyone else experienced this?

I feel so strong and certain when I’m on my own or talking to other people. But when him talking to him about the split it’s like I’m in a parallel universe and I doubt my sanity.

I think really it’s him who is insane

@MangoMandy

this is very insightful, thank you

I think it’s both with my husband- a strange family dynamic in his upbringing combined with an unbelievably inflexible, delusional personality type.

his siblings are much more self aware

they have openly commented to me in the past about his ‘issues’

i just chose to ignore it all, as it felt too scary and huge for me to face up to it

I think I’m in a relationship with one but he would argue that he is too, any thoughts?

That's what they do, they project themselves onto you, they cannot be at fault.

The way to determine who is who, is to look at who can accept fault, that they are wrong and own up to mistakes and change accordingly. Similarly, do you feel bad for hurting people's feelings, and do they or do they find an excuse?

You could also look at it by just asking the question, you are perhaps not because someone like that doesn't need confirmation. They already are already right in their mind.

At the end of his rages at me, screaming his head off and throwing tantrums, he'd yell, I'm a good person!! Eventually, it just made me laugh.

Now I’m not saying you should or shouldn’t report anything as a crime, but just to add to previous posters comments, legally someone doesn’t need to necessarily know that their behaviour would cause you serious upset/harm, but that they ought to have known and a reasonable person would have.
He can tell you as much as he wants that he’s a good person etc, if his actions clearly contradict that, then as far as any reasonable person is concerned, he is in the wrong (and possibly actually criminally liable)
I hope you get through this part really soon, maybe keep a log of things as they happen so you can look back on events in the moments when he has you almost convinced that you’re the one that’s mad.

I know this thread is about trying to work him out. But I just want to remind you that you get one life and you are entitled to choose how to spend it. You can decide what you’re prepared to put up with, where you want to go, how you want to feel, who you want to be close to.

It’s not working for me is a valid reason to end things. It’s probably true that his perspective on the situation is entirely different to yours, and that’s ok. His perspective might well be that you are an unreasonable, uncommunicative crazy woman who blew up a good marriage. That’s his opinion. Don’t let an opinion shackle you to a situation that is destroying you.

I would say fundamentally he is a good person

He definitely doesn’t apologise, I don’t tend to so much now as I don’t feel I am doing anything worthy of apology. I feel that I have done in the past and moderated my behaviour. I recently raised that with him and he turned it around on me. Now I feel he is just complaining about my personality and he doesn’t actually like me because I really don’t think I’m doing anything drastically unacceptable

@Thighdentitycrisis Well that's the problem some people are just difficult and have their flaws but underneath are good people.

Other people like these in question see themselves as good people, they do nice things and can show care or some form of empathy but it's an act, usually for public to maintain that image. Spend long enough around one and away from public view, their behavior doesn't always add up to someone who is a good person underneath and does and says things that indicate they don't have real empathy.

Mine we did have good times and we got on very well in periods but the bad outweighed the good. It was very much like they thrived on drama, we couldn't just live and get on. They never apologized for anything, ever and would be extremely blunt, rude and hurt people emotionally or create conflict. Everything revolved around themselves if they felt slighted, criticized or at fault it went south. Similarly if people said or did things they didn't agree with or didn't do what they wanted, same result. Highly opinionated and stubborn, would not budge and would hold grudges to the death.

Mine hated lies and apparently appreciated the truth and bluntness. That's how would be towards others. Yet if you did do any of that they couldn't take it. Similarly I have many times caught them in a lie, even with evidence they flat out deny it and double down. Very hypocritical throughout.

I think they feel they are totally entitled and justified in whatever abusive, controlling, manipulative behaviours they dish out, therefore it’s not abusive, controlling or manipulative as far as they see it.

When my STBXH describes his adultery partner’s STBXH as angry, controlling and manipulative he says it with a completely straight face and without a hint of irony so I really don’t think they have an ounce of self awareness.

@Charrington

thank you, that is the underlying thought that I try to hold on to - that I get to decide what I’m prepared to put up with, and I have reached my limit.

it’s just so hard (though this thread helps!) because he’s been so controlling that the idea that I have any agency is not something I’m used to

he behaves badly, doesn’t seem to register that he’s behaved badly, therefore any reaction from me seems outlandish

eg he yells at me in the supermarket, loud enough for people near us to back away and give us the side eye. I’m humiliated and furious and back in the car I tell him that. He looks astonished “what? I didn’t shout at you! That’s a total exaggeration , I was just pissed off because of the kids/too hot/ whatever, blah blah blah. Fuck sake, you’re really hurting my feelings, are you trying to pick a fight?” And he genuinely believes he’s done nothing wrong.

this sort of low level crap x1000

Agree with this but also because they get their needs met, anger offloaded etc and feel better it becomes justified.
They know no other way, they do not feel guilt nor empathy.
They do not think their behaviour is abusive, they think you deserve it because their hugely inflated ego cannot separate you as a person with needs or feelings of your own.
You are there to serve them, if you don't they feel justified in yelling and crucially blaming you .
They never ever take responsibility for their own behaviour, it's always someone else's fault.

@Toomuchdinner Yeah you think you may be alright in public because you know, street angle but no, do love a dose of humiliation out of thin air. You're like wtf was that about whilst simultaneously looking like a mug with everyone watching.

*Angel

He sounds really scary OP.

Well done for making plans.

What a dreadful environment for your children.

Remember, irrespective of whatever self serving bullshit he spouts, he is not entitled to be in a relationship with you.

My extended family has got a number of controlling people in it. (I only have contact with one of these people now, it’s fairly low contact and luckily they’ve never really tried to control me).

I remember a situation a few years ago between two family members and my mum stating that she thought it was a controlling situation, yet it didn’t stop her from trying to pull an almost identical situation with me a few weeks later.

Does she think that she’s a controlling person? I don’t think she does it’s like she got a God like complex of herself therefore she can do what she want. I just find it really interesting how she could see it other people though.

It’s likely that an abusive relationship also feels like love to him. He needs the highs and lows of the nervous system that come with this kind of relationship. A steady relationship without drama wouldn’t feel like love to him.

This is perceptive. I was raised by a pair of batshit weirdos, non-stop drama, and realised later that I had behaved abusively in some situations - and, more to the point in my case - married batshit weirdos. When your model of love & relationships is like a Gothic novel, that's how you're wired. Some part of my mind was always calculating a score, figuring out how to get the advantage. I was completely unaware that not everybody lives like this.

In your specific case, @Toomuchdinner, you are married to a (formal diagnosis) batshit weirdo. I'm glad you've noticed and are on your way out! Navigating this relationship will have altered your own wiring to an extent, so I strongly recommend reading Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That? and doing the Freedom Programme.

May your exit go reasonably smoothly.

He will not change and will continue to make you doubt yourself and feel like you're out of control. I just did the psychopathy test for my ex. He thought he was normal and that I was the problem. He scored 34.

He does not need and explanation for why you want to leave just the knowledge that you are done

Good luck

They know and enjoy you pretzelling yourself like this. Part of the fun.

Best of luck in getting rid of him. Ignore the headfuck because it's all part of his game.

Thanks everyone, this thread inspired me to open up again IRL

i just had a good chat with my parents.

They were in tears when they mentioned some of the worst behaviour they’d witnessed from him to me, and they also said something id never realised before-

that they hated coming to my house because it is so obvious that my husband considers it HIS house, the lord and master , and I am some kind of accessory who does all the drudgery (and of course pays half the mortgage)

it is so so true. He makes all the decisions

so

@Toomuchdinner Are we honestly like living a parallel life or something in a way. That's exactly what happened to me, I opened up and family were then like yeah we didn't like coming round, when they were allowed because of their behavior and could sense the dynamics.

So glad it's been or use and you are getting comfortable talking IRL, it does help your process it.

@Toomuchdinner @JibbaJab I was married to a similar man and my family never felt welcome, it was never easy having people over (even though we had a lovely house). I’ve had my family over for dinner more in the 8 months since we split that in the previous 8 years. He has made ending the marriage absolute hell (because of course he was “blindsided” - because he never listened to a word I said) but it has been worth it 100x over.

Sorry you experienced it too and glad you are happier now.

Yes, my situation with my wife was also about keeping everyone away or I suppose isolating. We didn't see a lot of family like some do, maybe my parents once every couple of weeks for an hour. Everyone else lived far away see them randomly through the year.

Then it became nobody can come down to visit, few weeks gap became months apart. No events with others, birthdays and Christmas alone at home nobody welcome. Our children haven't had a Christmas in the general sense, eldest has but too young to remember that was five years ago.

Now, the entire family on both sides are cut off and I am cut off too as withholding. So my children are totally isolated with her alone, no family and no father.

@Endoftheroad12345 my goodness this is almost uncanny

my husband used the word ‘blindsided’ too!

so pleased to hear you got out, although sorry that he is making it difficult for you

I really hope in eight months Ill be like you, and be able to say that it was worth it 100x over

I hadn’t realised this before, but I’m starting to suspect that the more people find out that my marriage is actually over, the more I’m going to have my eyes opened by some of the things they are going to say they witnessed/thought of him .

I was kind of convinced people would judge me as selfish for ‘destroying my family’ (this is my husbands view) and try to convince me to stay

but it seems like people have instead been hoping all along I’d see the light and get out of an abusive situation - maybe more abusive than I’ve been able to recognise

ive lots to process

OP, I am so pleased you are coming out of this. To answer your original question - I have long maintained that in fact, the vast bulk of abusive people genuinely have no idea. It's what allows them to do it - they aren't lying when they say x or y, because they 100% believe it. In many cases they have incredibly disordered thinking.

Unfortunately, it means you can never explain or get them to understand because they genuinely aren't capable of it.

I know a man who is universally hated by his ex's friends and family. he regularly rants, to anyone who will listen and many people who won't, that she turned everyone against him, that we all only heard her side of the story etc etc. The irony is that in fact, she is the only person who ever has anything nice to say about him. The rest of us base our thinking about him on things we actually saw and heard ourselves.

A classic example - this man did something borderline physically abusive to his ex. He does not dispute it. But he cannot understand why no one agrees with him that she "deserved it" and "needed to be taught a lesson", including her father and brother. Only someone who is deeply deeply delusional with serious problems could possibly imagine that her father and brother would agree with his actions.... he is FURIOUS that they are not supporting him.

The exact same for me @Toomuchdinner

Noone - including his own friends - have been anything but completely supportive and understanding.

An old friend who knew him quite well (we flatted together in our 20s) said “well I always thought he was a prick but I assumed he was secretly nice to you in private”

Nope 🤪