Expected to lower boundaries with a narc due to "perceived" illness

[Wonkie]

I have not seen my MIL in 3 years. After 10 years, I became fed up of the disrespect, passive aggression and persistent critical comments. Life has felt lovely since, although it almost tore my marriage apart at the time. DH still sees her and so do the GCs.

Then a few weeks ago, there was a sudden and unexpected expectation, not even a request, for me to be in MILs company at a party that I was organising for my child. I was thrown by it. DH seemed surprised that I said no! I felt the need to go over all the reasons I was NC all over again, much to my own distress. DH denied some of the events I discussed with him, said they had never happened, even after admitting that they had 3 years previously... I was stumped and very upset.

I did not spend the time in her company thankfully, but during a discussion since, DH has informed me that him and his father believe she has dementia. I asked if she had been to see the GP... no. Have they spoken to her about it? No.

He was visibly upset and seemed to have huge waves of empathy that I have never seen him have, not to myself or either of our children. It is clearly affecting him a lot, but I have these boundaries for a reason. And cynically, part of me even wonders if she's playing on this. It's something she would do for attention. I asked him if she is still functioning in her voluntary roles and social groups which she's very prevalent in and he says she is and that it mainly just affects her at home and during conversations.

I don't know what to think or what to do here? I believe that once again, I'll be the arsehole like I was considered last time by his father and his sibling for maintaining my distance. I don't know if my marriage can survive this again. Do I lower my boundaries and be in her company again? I can't think of anything worse. She apparently has no desire to reconcile but is happy to "ignore" me so that she can attend our childrens birthdays which everyone seems to think is ok! Help.

Wonkie

If his mother is too toxic or otherwise too difficult for you to deal with, its the same deal for your kids too. They should not be further subjected to someone like his mother.

If your H wants to see her so be it but it does not follow that your kids have to do so as well. Your children as they age will further notice how their nan treats them i.e badly. Narcissists also make for being deplorably bad grandparents as well and I note without much surprise that she is already playing their cousins off against your own children; their cousins are more favoured with your kids being scapegoated.

Do not let your own self be further used as a buffer between he and his mother.
Your H for his part is mired in FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) re his mother; three buttons she installed in him from early childhood. His own inertia when it comes to his mother hurts him as much as you. He really does think the sky will fall in if mother is upset in any way and she has likely implied the threat of disinheritance if he cuts her off.

You're both right @AttilaTheMeerkat and @QuintessentiallyScottish . He has mummy issues which run deep, I've known that for the last few years. I thought we'd found a way to deal with it through my distancing but no, it seems it's not enough.

It seems the whole family is in denial, particularly his father who you would think knows her better than anyone. They're convinced that she was only ever accidentally rude and disrespectful towards me. His sibling thought differently- he openly admitted to me that she was a manipulative, passive aggressive woman, but even he fell over himself with loyalty to her in the end. They're all trained to put up with bad behaviour and think that it's entirely normal and ok because it's MIL.

I have a feeling that all of this will get worse as she ages now and potentially deteriorates if she does have dementia. It's even crossed my mind that if his father dies before her, I genuinely think that DH would leave us and move in with her. That's pretty bad isn't it.

If she hasn’t been diagnosed by a medical profession I would be very sceptical that there’s anything wrong with her. If she is fine at her social events but only gets effected at home that sounds very convenient.
The person who I knew with dementia couldn’t switch it on and off for various audiences, it was always there with everyone.
I would encourage DH to take her to the doctors for all of your sakes. You will know one way or another then and it will be easier for you to decide what to do.
I wouldn’t reinstate contact even if she had dementia though, it sounds like she’s always been horrible.

@Wonkie

You questioned your DH if your MIL had been diagnosed by a medical professional of dementia.

Has your MIL been diagnosed by a medical professional of narcissism?

Both need a doctor’s diagnosis, to be fair and honest.

Maybe she’s just a bully and an arsehole. The term “narcissist” has been greatly overused. True cases are actually quite rare.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-second-noble-truth/202106/are-there-really-so-many-narcissists

Could you elaborate on this @AttilaTheMeerkat or give an example.

I'm interested.

Oh you're in a very difficult position. Your husband doesn't see anything wrong with his behaviour so he is not going to change. Plus he's gaslighting you which makes things so much worse. It's going to be a very rocky ride, but for yourself in the long term, stand your ground.

I keep posting links to these podcasts as unfortunately there are so many of us affected by narcissist mothers/MILs. Incredibly valididating and they explain so much, for me the knowledge has helped me stay steady at times I have been under huge pressure.
https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/in-sight-exposing-narcissism/id1613030538
Perhaps start with Episode 5, Arrested Development, I was re-listening to it this evening and in the first half hour there has been a lot of discussion on people putting an abused person under pressure to re-establish a relationship with a narc.
Another episode that might help is no. 26, the Cost of No. This is the first one I listened to. I was annihilated by my "mother"'s family for drawing the line at her telling me if I was a proper mother she'd have a better relationship with her grandchildren (who she gave no help with, only criticism) and this podcast really resonated with me. It's not uncommon in narc families to completely cast out someone who decides not to accept the abuse any more.

Also, drama is used to try to lure victims back into the toxicity. (In my case my "mother" had a cousin message me that she would die in the next day or two. This was about 6 months ago.) It is quite worrying in terms of your overall possibilities of a relationship with your husband that he is the one coming up with this "reason" for you to drop your boundaries with your MIL.

Have a look at the Stately Homes thread here on MN, so many sad stories but much wisdom and support.

Narcs live long and love drama. The "I'm going to die" card will be played many times without any actual event happening.

Old narcs lack an audience because people get wise to them. Medical issues mean both attention and the opportunity to guilt others. Unsurprisingly they may have long periods of mysterious lingering illness that go on for decades.

Keep your boundaries up.

@DreamTheMoors
"Has your MIL been diagnosed by a medical professional of narcissism?

Both need a doctor’s diagnosis, to be fair and honest.

Maybe she’s just a bully and an arsehole. The term “narcissist” has been greatly overused. True cases are actually quite rare."

I think in time it will be shown that narcissism is in fact under-diagnosed. It needs a psychiatrist and my personal experience (plus extensive reading, listening to podcasts, joining groups etc.) suggests most narcissists won't go near a psychiatrist, saying "I'm not crazy".
While psychotherapists' consulting rooms are filled up with their victims.

@Escapingafter50years

Mean does not equal narcissist. Selfish does not equal narcissist. Either does bully or arsehole or just plain jerk behaviour.
”I’m not crazy” is rarely an excuse for not seeing a shrink - “There’s nothing the matter with me” is a far more likely excuse, but you’re right - getting mentally ill people or people who could benefit from psychiatric help are the hardest ones to get there, not just suspected narcissists.
And getting them there is only half the battle. Getting them to open up - both to talk and to listen are battles as well once you’ve gotten them there.

I said she was "Narcissistic" which she absolutely is @DreamTheMoors I'm careful with my wording for this precise reason.

No matter what your problems are with your MIL, she is your husband’s mother, so of course he feels differently about her than you do! I should imagine that your child also will have been affected by your refusal to acknowledge her grandmother at her birthday party. It’s perfectly OK to take a stance on whether to have a relationship with someone or not, but what you can’t do is demand that someone else also takes the same stance. You are making your dh choose. It may well not be you that he chooses!

There is a lot more to narcissism than "bully" or "arsehole" @DreamTheMoors . Obviously I've not elaborated on her behaviours here but some of them would shock most people. She's never bullied me once openly, everything has been manipulative and low key to any outsiders but very obvious to me.

Narcissists also have a huge sense of grandeur which sets them apart from plain arseholes. My MIL would repeatedly speak of herself as "inspirational" and every conversation was centred around what she perceived as life achievements. Birthdays would centre around what SHE had done for others as if she had done something incredibly special like just by purchasing a present. For me, this is what sets her apart from anyone I know. I am a bit of painter in my spare time and she once told me she was insulted because I was painting pictures and she couldn't paint. Extremely odd interactions. She told me she hated a lady I'm friends with for being "too happy."

She bought a gift for my SIL once which was 5 sizes too small after she gained a lot of weight.

Again, she has no diagnosis of narcissism so I can not call her an outright narcissist but she definitely has narcissistic tendencies.

And there are obviously many more examples, most much worse but very outing. She practically harrassed me when my first child was born and she once called me at 1am, not speaking when my husband happened to be working away, just breathing noises down the phone on my house phone. I remembered 1471 and it was her number. Obviously she told everyone it had been an "accident."

I cut contact with my mil and her partner several years ago for the same reasons as you OP. My DH also denies some of the events that were part of the reason I cut contact and I’ve been made out to be the baddie in this situation but it has been a breath of fresh air and I have no regrets whatsoever. A few years ago his mother was diagnosed with cancer. I was supportive of my DH but I did not see my mil during her illness. At some point there was an announcement that her partner who is elderly was gravely ill and it was made out that he was at deaths door. We were never told what was wrong with him - that was several years ago and he’s still alive and kicking. She lied to my husband about things they have done to me over the years so has proven that they are deceitful so I wouldn’t be surprised if her partners illness was a made up story. When I cut contact I knew there would come a time when one of them might pass away due to old age but I had to cut contact with them for my own sanity.

That’s great that you got a diagnosis for your MIL - I’m sure at least you’ll know what to expect.
I hope with some outside helpi to ease your burden it will be easier on you and your kids.
My relative died only 3 days ago from Alzheimer’s that began as dementi -that’s worst case scenario.
Anyhow, you be good to yourself.
You’re in my heart.❤️

No it doesn't I cared for my nan with dementia she was the sweetest thing who thought her husband was still alive and walking the dog or at work I was either my mother me or her cousin the ONLY time she was nasty was when she had a UTI

It's up to his family to get a diagnosis. My narc mum 89 and still as sharp as a pin. So this could be a new tactic. Hold your ground with husband. My mil was awful to her children. My husband wept more for his mother than his loving father. It's twisted

I get on well with my MIL - but one incident well over a decade ago showed me how sons can minimise what their mums do. She let us down over childcare which she had offered (a one-off for our 9 year old only as baby was in nursery) when I was in for surgery which was rescheduled into the school holidays. The reason was the weather - I kid you not. It was likely to rain and she wouldn’t have a car to take him somewhere. She created a huge problem in her mind when all she had to do was be in the house with a 9 year old for 8 hours and make him a sandwich lunch.

DH minimised it - she was just having a silly panic. After he found out from BIL &SIL that she had discussed it with them several days earlier and they had told her she was being ridiculous, but she still called me, he still minimised it. The surgery I was having related to cancer prevention (what my mum died of) and involved sterilisation so I needed everything to be calm and organised as it was already stressful. If I had let him down in that way over childcare he would not have been impressed. But it was ok for her to do it. He has never accepted how let down I felt. He did ask her not to discuss it or the surgery when we saw them a few days before the op. She said she wouldn’t. She waited until he was out of the room and started talking about it - he walked in on it and heard her. Even then, he minimised it.

In my case this is one incident in decades of an otherwise good relationship. In your case this is much worse - keep your boundaries up.

You're correct, Mean, selfish, bully, arsehole, jerk do not necessarily equal narcissist. In my case they do, and actually the phrase used by my "mother" was "She thinks I'm crazy, I'm not going to a shrink".

Due to something that occurred a few years ago, I was referred to a therapist. In the course of therapy she highlighted that the behaviour from my "mother" towards me was hurtful and unloving, and that in fact if social services were aware I probably would have been removed from home. Since then I started to realise how bad she is and I went to another therapist who referred me to one who is more experienced in dealing with the effects of narcissistic abuse.
So whilst my "mother" has not been and will never be diagnosed as a narcissist, she is one. Think, for example, of people you may have met who are obviously autistic, but not diagnosed, that doesn't mean they are not autistic (apologies to anyone who doesn't like my analogy). (Also people are not abusive because they are autistic, they are abusive because they are abusive!).

If you listen to the podcasts I linked to, you will hear dozens of heartbreaking stories where mothers destroy their daughters' mental health. I see the same in some Facebook groups I'm in and in books I have read. I wouldn't worry about an official label of narcissist. The damage these people can do without a label is horrific.

I'm not at all surprised at the examples you've given of your MIL's behaviour @Wonkie , so many similarities to mine and my ex husband's. Different names, different people, same behaviours. All designed to put them into your head and take up far too much of the space.

Same with @Maray1967 's example, that sounds so familiar too. How to make a big day for you all about her. For ever.

Lucky are those who are unaware of the effects of experiencing such behaviour.

Arseholes are still arseholes even if they are poorly.
You don’t need to change how you feel or what you do

I think you need to tell your DH that you’re not going to tolerate his manipulative bullshit to make his life easier. His mum isn’t invited. End of.

Those of us who have endured the treament of a narcissist understand there are many people who do not understand how we know.

But we know.

Diagnosed or not diagnosed.
In fact most people know a narcissist would never allow themselves to be evaluated for the benefit of others, only if it were a benefit to themselves would they 'seek help'.