Breakdown of friendship -- help me make sense of this please

[Thelaughingtonepoliceman]

This is going to be LONG as I want to put in as much context as possible. Trying to keep it as impartial as possible but I'm upset and obviously see this from my perspective.

Old friend (20 years plus). Have been very close for years. Our daughters were very close though have drifted apart in recent years. Last year there was an incident in which her daughter (13) and another girl sent my daughter (12) unpleasant messages accusing her of being a snitch and a chav. My daughter was desperately upset as she had previously considered this child her best friend.

I called the mum (my friend) on it and said I wouldn't normally get involved but this behaviour was unacceptable and quite close to bullying in my view and I would protect my daughter from stuff like this. She was very apologetic and her DD was forced to apologise. All was resolved and we moved on superficially although I think her DD is understandably pulling away from mine as she grows up, but they still love one another. I accept that sometimes children grow apart, but providing this situation to explain the background. I love her daughter a lot but I think her behaviour is quite bad a lot of the time and she is quite undisciplined. I haven't explicitly said this to my friend but it may be obvious that I think it.

In February this year we went away together on a short minibreak (me, my friend and our two daughters). Trip was happy, fine and without incident or disagreement, apart from the fact that my daughter ended up in A&E with an asthma attack on the last night.

But on the way home my friend lashed out at me for something which in my view is unbelievably trivial and there must be more to her response than this: I failed to reciprocate buying a beer which she bought for me at the Eurostar terminal when we returned to London. When we got back home after the trip she sent me a text message saying she thought I had a "screw you" mentality towards her and her DD in general and this was an example of this.

Her portion of the holiday had been almost entirely paid for by her brother as a birthday gift. I'd paid for all of mine and my DD's costs and we split the costs of everything (food, drink, tourist stuff) out there. So there's no way she can have felt that I'd taken her for a ride financially or freeloaded off her. It was obviously about something bigger than the beer I didn't buy for her. I've asked her what it is and she reiterated that she thought I had a "screw you" attitude but wouldn't elaborate.

We basically haven't spoken since then: before her DD's birthday last month I sent her a message to ask what the DD would like for her birthday and she didn't respond and hasn't done since and neither she nor her DD have thanked me or my DD for the gift.

Clearly there is more going on here than this one incident and it's a symbol for something else more problematic in the relationship. I've accepted that for whatever reason this friendship isn't really working for her right now and have given her space: we haven't communicated at all for over six weeks.

But I want to try to understand what has happened and whether I am in any way at fault. My guess is that she is still angry about what happened with our DD's last year or uncomfortable about the fact that they are growing apart and using some complete red herring about buying a beer on the train as a fig leaf. But it's strange and very upsetting. Wonder if anyone else has any thoughts.

I think you might need to accept she's decided to move on. No one likes being pulled up on their child's behaviour- rightly or wrongly. Personally I'd not have bothered with a present when she didn't reply.

You need to detach with love.

I get that and I've agonised for weeks as to whether I crossed a line telling her about the messages sent by her DD and the other child. I would probably have felt very similar if someone criticised my DD's behaviour and I've tried to keep in mind that these are still young children. But ny daughter was in tears about this for days and needed to understand that this behaviour from a "friend" wasn't normal. I felt I had to do something.

I have already detached and won't contact her again for a while. I just want to understand if I'm at fault in any way.

She didn't like the fact you called her out on her bully of a daughter, don't contact her again she's a waste of space.

OP, don't contact her again.

She's been a prick to you.

Her daughter has been a prick to your daughter.

Neither are good friends.

Don't "not contact her for awhile", don't contact her at all! She does not want to be friends anymore, let her go.

You’ve done the right thing by your DD a d I’m sure it means a lot to her knowing her mum always has her back.

Your friend very likely didn’t like this and perhaps since then realized that you might think her DD is undisciplined and not well behaved. (I don’t blame you btw, the bullying incident alone sounds pretty rough) Any actual incidents on the trip or any tension between the girls?

I have a few friends where quite frankly I don’t agree with their parenting and don’t want my DD to be around their kids really. It’s hard as those are also long term friendships from way before kids. If I can, I socialize with these friends only without kids and avoid the topic of discipline all together. But ultimately the safety and well-being of my DD is a priority over those friendships.

@evuscha

There were no particular flashpoints on the trip, no, no fallings out or discussion. There were a couple of incidents where I privately thought her DD was quite spoiled. For example at the point where it became obvious that my DD was going to have to go to hospital with her asthma and said I needed to get a taxi, my friend suggested they come with us and her DD started whingeing about missing out on a trip to McDonalds.

I don't exactly blame her for this: she's a 13 year old girl and they are inherently immature and selfish. But had my daughter said something like this when another child was ill I would have given her hell.

Getting into the realms of judging someone else's parenting is a fool's errand and potentially very unkind so I won't go there and I accept that my friend parents as she sees fit but it may have become apparent at that point that i thought her daughter was a bit spoiled.

They are not friends and the daughter sounds like a brat. It's better to move on from this and forget them

Yeah I know what you mean, I also make sure I don’t criticize, but I suppose it does show or perhaps she’s also insecure about her parenting or knows her DD is not the kindest and little things like that made her more aware or embarrassed even.
I’m pretty sure my friends know their kids have the issues, they get in trouble at school frequently, got kicked out of preschool when they were younger, their grandparents don’t want to babysit them and told them it’s because they’re spoiled - my friends don’t see anything wrong with their parenting, it’s always someone else’s fault (teachers, grandparents being mean, or being unlucky to have such wild boys “you can’t imagine, girls are so much easier”)….but either way they are aware their kids are getting judged by others and perhaps your friend feels it too ever since that bullying incident. (and again, I’m not saying you’re wrong!)

Anyway nothing from what you’ve said here doesn’t point to anything being your fault, or you doing something wrong. I would probably just let her be. She might get in touch after a while and maybe explain what was going on, or she might not. But so far neither your friend nor her DD showed a lot of kindness to you and your DD so maybe it’s not even such a huge loss if she doesn’t.

I don't think you've done anything wrong. I think your friend is embarrassed and feels awkward, but it's easier her for to try and shift the blame for the awkwardness onto you by inventing a problem than for her to admit her daughter isn't nice sometimes.

Sounds like your friend is a bully too.

either way they are aware their kids are getting judged by others and perhaps your friend feels it too ever since that bullying incident. (and again, I’m not saying you’re wrong!)

Yes I can totally relate to this. My daughter is prone to difficult behaviour and has her moments and I can totally understand that feeling of total helplessness and impotence and inability to manage a situation. I understand that it's not always a linear thing of not having enough "discipline" or whatever.

I also think that the friendship between our daughters has cooled and that her daughter understandably perhaps felt a bit stifled by mine because she was growing up and entering puberty faster. And that's totally normal, that happens. Bullying aside, I do think every child has a right to move on from a friendship that isn't working for them.

But I would have hoped we were close enough for her to be honest about this as opposed to inventing some completely spurious excuse to make me look like the bad guy.

Anyway you are all right that this is definitely something which is best left for now. For whatever reason she doesn't feel able to be my friend at the moment and I need to respect this.

When friendship starts to involve children and their tensions / unstraightforward dynamics or battles, it becomes complicated. You have both strayed into that territory. I fell out with someone over our children and something very minor. I’ve known other situations like it. Parents are just extremely defensive of their young.

I think you just have to chalk it up to experience. Can’t go through life unscathed and this one does NOT sound like it’s your fault or your doing.

@Peterpiperpickedapeckof

Yep. It’s sad really but I think the lesson here is never try to mix parenting and friendship. Sad that I have lost a friend over it.

The only thing you did wrong here was having a mini break with your teens who clearly don’t get on. In time you might see the mum at group things and just be as nice as possible. You might salvage a more general friendship out of this but give them space

People hate being pulled up on their children's behaviour, this is something I have learned.
I spoke to a very good friend once about her daughter being involved in a group at school that were verbally bullying mine. I was on the phone to her, trying to be tactful and not being nasty or anything but she suddenly said, I've got to go, I'll call you back.
She never did, we never spoke again.

I agree and in retrospect that was probably a mistake. It was her idea though (she didn't have to pay for any of the upfront costs and I guess in her head it was a no brainer) and also the bullying issue had (as far as I was aware) blown over and the girls were friends so I didn't see any red flags at the time it was being planned.

But clearly if we are ever going to be able to salvage the adult friendship we will have to decouple this from the friendship between the children.

I had thought about trying to buy her a drink to try to do this but I'm still quite upset and feel that the ball is definitely in her court so I'm not going to do this. I feel that while her reasons are understandable, the way she has managed this has been immature and a bit vindictive and I need my adult friendships to be more grown up than this. I need to work on convincing myself that she's no great loss in my life.

Yep. I do totally get it. I would very probably be exactly the same if the boot had been on the other foot. It's a very uncomfortable thing to have to deal with.

Do you know more about the backstory of why the unkind messages were sent last year? Why did the two girls say your dd is a snitch and a chav? What did she snitch on and to whom? Are they at the same school?

Generally speaking, it is my experience that once an unkindness of the sort you describe occurs between older children, there is no going back. I would not have gone on holiday with your friend and her daughter after that but kept her at an arms length or maybe just setup without dc.

It takes some very mature personalities to make long term friendships work when the children are also friends but then inevitably grow apart in teenage hood or worse fall out.

I mean, do people socialise with family friends where their tweens or teens have grown apart? It never worked for us. I wouldn't want to force my dc to spend their precious weekends and holidays with people they don't get on with or have nothing in common with.

setup = meet up

Maybe she’s picked up on how you feel about her dd. And I don’t blame you if she is undisciplined and has it in her to send her friend bullying messages, she wouldn’t be my favourite person in the world, either. I would struggle with it. I actually have a similar situation with a friend and have to distance myself at times. Sad but I suspect she’s chosen her dd over your friendship.

I was very hurt at the time as I thought we were good friends who could get past things our daughters were doing.

I also felt a bit used as she was a single parent who had benefitted a lot in the past from me helping her with free childcare that she no longer needed. However, over many years I have gained more understanding that it is just very very awkward when your childrens friendships falter and you are still trying to maintain a mums friendship. Just a bad dynamic.

I don't think you did anything wrong at all, she just had some unresolved resentment towards you that came out this way.

@BookLizzard

So the background to this: my DD and my friend's DD were best friends for about 4-5 years. They're at different schools but we'd see each other as families about once a week, maybe more. Lots of sleepovers, several holidays. We're both single mums, if that's relevant.

Last year her DD started hanging out with an older child (call her Jane) who seemed to actively want to drive a wedge between my DD and her DD. Every time we went over there her DD would be out playing with Jane and when they came over Jane would be rude and bitchy to my DD. My child is quite young for her age and guileless and didn't really get the hint and was a bit slow to put boundaries up so she probably tolerated it for longer than she should have done.

There was one incident when we were over there for the afternoon and her DD and Jane upset my DD. I wasn't in the room but apparently there were lots of remarks about how immature my DD was because she didn't have a boyfriend etc.

My DD was crying and the mum (my friend) found her and asked her what was wrong. My DD told the mum that her friend and Jane were being horrible to her.
That was what was behind the remark about her being a "snitch". I didn't realise for a while that this had happened so it only came out that my DD had been upset after the video was sent to her.

The chav thing I still can't explain. They sent my DD a video of themselves singing a song about how much they hated chavs and how awful chavs were and naming the chavs they knew. They spooled out a list of children they deemed to be chavs (most of whom I didn't know) and at end of the list left a meaningful silence and then said "or chavs like..... YOU". Then they collapsed into giggles and the video ended. It was ambiguous and plausibly deniable but very clearly intended to hurt my DD.

I said to my friend on the phone that I understood that her DD has a right to make a new best friend and that my DD probably hadn't handled it well but that I thought she should be aware that her DD was being quite unkind and that in my view it was borderline bullying. And also that she might want to think about where else this video might be being sent (because obviously that could have got the DD and Jane into trouble at school). It was partly about me defending my kid, obviously, but I also felt she should be made aware of it.

She superficially accepted this and her DD was pretty robustly disciplined (and Jane was banned from the house for a period of time). And the next few meetings we had after that were all fine so I assumed it had blown over.

But clearly they both (Jane and her mum) felt aggrieved about what had happened in some way and the way I had dealt with it hadn't got past it.

You were absolutely right to tell your friend about the phone messages. If her DD had done that to another child at the age of 13 the parents could have involved the police for cyber-bullying or at the very least notified her school. She needed to be pulled up on that before getting into serious trouble and causing a lot of pain to others because she wouldn't have stopped at your DD.

I am sorry you seem to have lost the friendship over it (because I can't see what else it could be) but don't regret what you did.

‘where it became obvious that my DD was going to have to go to hospital with her asthma and said I needed to get a taxi, my friend suggested they come with us and her DD started whingeing about missing out on a trip to McDonalds.’

Urgh, she sounds horrible. You are very loyal and patient but you don’t want or need to be around this. I think your friend has done you a favour. It’s not you, it’s them.