Where’s the line between certain behaviours and abuse?

[Itsalongtime]

When does angry become abusive or passionate become abusive? If a passionate person argues with a sensitive person when is the line crossed? A man arguing with a women will almost always have the physical upper hand. Is it having to win the argument and not agreeing to disagree and using power to achieve it?

Does not being interested in your partners feelings make you abusive or just a twaty person. We can’t know another’s motives can we.

When the other changes to accommodate beyond what is comfortable for them.

As a starter.

I think I could have worded it better like when does a lack of control become about taking control. Some people get angry because they loose control and some use anger to gain control. How can you tell?

It doesn't matter because any anger that makes you feel uncomfortable is unacceptable and should make you walk. It's ok to feel angry occasionally but not to let that anger intimidate anyone.

Hmm good question:-

Irrational anger
patterns of anger and manipulation
feeling as if you are walking of eggshells
control
unable to see the other person’s point of view and unwilling to try
has to be right
makes you feel scared or intimidated
possessiveness

I agree with @pog100 . I think that we get to caught up on what is abusive and not or what is wrong and not. This in fact is what kept me in my marriage for over 25 years, because I kept thinking, or this is not abuse, he is simply bad communicator. In the end my therapist confirmed that his behavior was emotional abuse. However, in therapy I also learned, it does not matter what is going on and weather or not you can put a label on it, what matters is how this makes YOU feel. You can try and work it out with him/her or just leave, but what you should not be doing is just accepting it and suffering as a result.

Yes I think we would all agree that any anger that makes you feel uncomfortable is not acceptable. I was just wondering when it constitutes abuse and when it’s just loosing control.

I've been asking this question a lot recently. My husband loses his temper at small things. He knows he has a temper and normally apologises afterwards.

I find it hard to live with. But I'm not sure at what point it becomes 'abusive'....

I'm not sure either, however when I looked up the definition of abuse it is to mistreat someone else, so I think it does apply here. And also I think just the fact you are questioning it shows that some line has been crossed for you. I hope you are ok.

And the perpetrators enjoys this

Patterns of behaviour is a good indicator.

I'm not sure rigid definitions are helpful, unless you're going through a legal process. It doesn't have to be abuse to make you uncomfortable and for the relationship to be unhealthy.

A friend of mine was once stuck on whether she was in an abusive relationship, and she didn't want to leave unless that dictionary definition was met. I said that the relationship made her anxious, upset and turned her into a worse version of herself - those are all reasons to leave, and trying to pin it down as "abuse" or trying to divine her partner's intentions was a waste of time.

(From what I saw they were barely compatible in the first place and behaved terribly to each other. You could call each of them abusive at various points, but I don't think that would have been helpful. Once it finally ended, which took far too fucking long, both of them were a lot happier, and as far as I know haven't repeated their patterns in their current long-term relationships.)

Curious to know why you're asking OP? Are you concerned you're the abusive one?

I think it's different for everyone. Some people think shouting is abusive, but a lack of any raised voice at all can fuel anger into other deeply unpleasant behaviours and passive aggression.

It just depends, and is a bit easier to define on a physical level. Throwing things around, trashing someone else's things to intimidate them, looming over them, blocking their path are all ways of scaring the other person and showing them who is boss. I would not tolerate such behaviour. Futher down the line is things like shoving and pushing, and then that can escalate to hitting. Some people think nothing of calling their partner a cunt or a bitch even in day to day arguments.

That kind of behaviour shows you that someone is walking all over you, and if we're talking about men, they certainly would think twice before behaving like that in front of another man, and often wouldn't do it at all I suspect. I would advise a woman to leave a relationship if she experiences the above.

Short of having a diagnosable dysregulation condition, the vast majority of people can control their emotions including anger. People choose not to control it at times when it is beneficial to do so because they have learnt that doing so helps them to achieve a certain goal- such as getting their own way or stopping another person from arguing their point of view. It's an incredibly completed process based on learnt schemas and social learning that dictates how people then act in situations. people who describe themselves as short fused have learnt that acting in that way gains them something. If they had learnt the opposite this short fusedness would not exist. Doesn't help that all this is largely subconscious, so people then believe that they cannot help it, or change it but they can. The vast majority of aggressive behaviour, including displays of anger, is done with an underlying intention behind it because the person doing it has learnt that doing so will have a gain for them.

@EarthSight no I’m not worried I’m an abuser. I guess it’s impossible to figure out someone’s intentions. I was abused and fully believe he knew what he was doing (well I think I do). He had always declared he just had problems controlling his anger and needed anger management skills and that I always triggered him. I always believed this was not the problem the problem was he never intended to care about my points of view and be got angry to shut me up.

For example he claimed I lost his mobile phone. I had it but someone took it out of my bag without anyone knowing. He got more and more angry because I wouldn’t apologise. I said how can I apologise for getting pick pocketed. He said he’d treat me better if I apologised which I refused so he screamed then ignored me for days. He said he was angry as he had important things on his phone, I thought he was more angry because he couldn’t get me to apologise and grovel.

What is the benefit of knowing that it is or isn't abuse, @Itsalongtime ? Why are you interested to know?

I think a better question to ask is 'am I generally happy being with this person?'

It doesn't have to be abuse for us to leave.

If someone makes us sad or angry or misunderstood all the time then that's no life to be living. Even if there's fleeting happiness from time to time.

Relationships should be easy. Yes there might be difficult times due to external events such as bereavement, moving, job issues ect...but even those should be easier because you have that other person to help you with it.

General life should feel comfortable with the person. And hard times shared should mostly be problems halved, through their support.

If your whole relationship is exhausting then get out of there.

I think I’ve been watching too much criminal minds lately and I find it all fascinating.

I think the problem with trying to nail down a definition is often people who are abusers might not be "bad" people. There's a great deal of disordered thinking involved. So he MIGHT be accusing you re the phone because he's a dick. Or he might be doing it because he genuinely thinks that it's your fault and you should apologise. If the former - he's a bad person. If the latter, he's got the disordered thinking of an abuser even if he's not a truly "bsd" person.

It is interesting. If you are terrified of dogs, and your partner buys you a puppy, deliberately to upset you, then then would be an abusive action. And yet nobody could say that buying someone a puppy was abusive.

It's all much too nuanced to be able to give a 'this is abusive and this isn't' sort of answer. Same with 'red flags'. There are certain things that would make anybody feel off (leering at other women/pushing for sex etc), and those can be regarded as 'definite' red flags, but again, exposing you to dogs could be a red flag, if the person knows you're terrified of them. Taking you to a dog's home or to friend's houses who have dogs isn't a red flag, except for you.

This is why I'm bewildered when people post 'Is this a red flag?'... only you can know. If it makes you feel crap, then it's a red flag for you. And that's as much as anybody can tell you.

I used to wonder why he always took me to very expensive restaurants when he knew I disliked eating out. I used to be forced as a child to sit and eat my dinners or else I’d be punished and I told him that restaurants especially quite expensive ones made me feel anxious. At the time I thought I was being unreasonable as eating out was “normal” so he told me and I was spoiling what he loved to do. I’d sit and look obviously very nervous but it didn’t bother him. He wouldn’t let me stay behind either without getting cross or ignoring me.

Ive told me new partner but every time we’ve been out I feel absolutely fine. He was very considerate the first few times and said we don’t have to go and that’s fine. Now I can eat anywhere.

That to me is the sign of a safe relationship.

But yeah eating out is considered absolutely normal and not abusive. They are very clever and very deliberate!

My point was that 'normal' doesn't mean 'not abusive'. Just because lots of people are ok doing something, it doesn't mean that you should be ok doing it. 'Normal' is a dangerous concept, in that regard.

This is very true. My ex wasn't a shouter. Never broke anything, threw a phone, name called, or any of the classic signs of an abusive person. But he was and is, abusive as fuck. It took me years to realise it as I thought abusive men were violent and nasty.

Yes being made to go against your normal makes you feel off balance and powerless. They are so good at finding your normals and your personal vulnerabilities. It eventually drove me to have an emotional breakdown because I went against everything I was and I lost control of myself. It’s been a hard recovery as my world was warped in ways I never even realised.

@Grimeduster yes, same here.