Everything has gone to shit

[glasshole]

I'm going to try to keep this balanced and succinct. But sorry if I waffle. I just don't know what to do from here.

I'm mid 40s. 4 kids 14-25. My eldest two witnessed some terrible domestic abuse that ended when he was arrested and sent to prison. It ended when my eldest was around 2 3/4 and my second around 18 months. Very close together kids. I got myself sorted out but had suffered a lot of issues, I'd used drugs to numb the pain etc and was very traumatised. But I managed to get into a uni course Despite no GCSEs and met my husband. His love and support made us blossom and he's the love of my life. With him supporting me I got a diagnosis of CPTSD and bipolar and was lucky enough to get on a medical trial. After six months of intensive therapy my life was totally transformed.

My eldest daughter was a sunny beautiful child but could be very nervous after what happened. At around age 11 she was assaulted and everything changed. She started really badly behaving, lying to the extreme, skipping school, telling people awful awful lies about me like I didn't feed them, I was so mentally Ill I was about to be sectioned. She was eventually diagnosed with EUBPD and I've done everything I can to help her. She never takes her medication reliably but will swear she is. She says she wants counselling then refuses the first session. And everytime she starts spiralling, it's me that becomes her monster. It's like she tries to destroy me, with words, anger, with stress and anxiety. I've learned to step back and ignore her although it's very hard at times. I 100% can see my own life experiences, my failings as a parent etc in her behaviour and I have apologised to her so many times and said I will do everything I can for her. But she's simultaneously terrified of being abandoned but pushes me away by being a total monster. I could deal with it for the last 12-13 years but things have changed as she now has children.

I made the mistake a few weeks ago of raising concerns about her third pregnancy in 3 years . On how I was very worried. How I was a bit fed up of hearing constant complaints about pregnancy sickness and the same thing for 2 years solid. She can be very negative, while I intentionally try to be positive to keep my own mental health on track. She doesn't do pregnancy very well. It's constant health issues, drama, and a lot of it is over exaggerated. She really seems to enjoy the attention she gets from checking in on FB etc although that's dwindling. Her eldest is just two, then a baby of 5 months and now she's 10 -12 weeks pregnant. On benefits and hasn't declared that her boy friend is living with her. I'm worried sick. They have both admitted to smacking my eldest grand child. When I've raised my concerns, about her coping, how her house is often very messy and even unsafe, she's weaponised the children and banned me from seeing them totally.

It took me two weeks to create an apology for upsetting her, and I wouldn't apologise for what I've raised as genuine concerns. But I never meant to upset her, I fully admitted that her life choices are HERS to make but I was struggling with my own mental health and worry about her and the kids etc. She told me I won't be seeing them in the future as I'm a risk to them and I'm dangerous. Everybody else can see them but not me. I am absolutely not, NOT a risk.

In the past I've always backed down as my concern is to help her and get her back to "normal" as quickly as possible. EUBPD is a horrible condition and I know I am partly responsible for her rocky first few years etc but all I want is for her to get therapy. I'd even pay for it privately if she would just engage and start realising her behaviour patterns and how damaging they are. Now to her kids. Her eldest smacks her all the time and I dread to think what's going on at home.

I am devastated that I can't see my grand sons. She said

"I KNEW you’d home in on the fact I’m not letting you see the kids. And that’s why I said it. I’ve seen first hand what you’d do, you told me if I ran away to wales you’d call social services on my Nan when I was a child, you told me how much of a bad parent she was, you told me I’d end up addicted to drugs on the streets etc… it doesn’t matter to me that you think I’m ‘using them as a weapon’ I am not, I’m protecting them from people that would hurt them and me. You say your a grandmother that would die for my kids, that’s fine but you only take. KIDS. when I NEED you too because of an appointment or something, you don’t take them because you want them. You chose to drink over having them over night, and that’s your choice, but don’t tell me you’d do anything for them because all we have been shown since you said you’d help more is them being let down. But do you know what? Not having to censor what I say has actually made me feel good, I’m always scared of telling you that you’ve hurt me "

The social services thing was when she was threatening to run away to my mothers as a child. ( she has undiagnosed EUBPD and was a TERRIBLE mother to me). And as for me choosing booze, I go to my sister twice a week about 4pm and we share some drinks I'm home in bed by 9-10pm. She's my best friend and the only person I socialise with. Surely I'm allowed? Ironically, my daughter wants me to have the kids so her and her fella can go out 🤷🏼‍♀️.

So I think this hangs also on the fact that I won't commit to more regular childcare. But I'm still parenting myself. My daughter is 14. It's all hormones and angst. I've only just last year got two new hobbies that I REALLY enjoy and are good for my mental health. I've been a mum for 25 years and my journey isn't even over and now I'm supposed to add in regular overnight slots for 3 babies under 3 ? In reality we were having both kids every other Saturday or Sunday for 4-6 hours during the day and I was having them one or two mornings or afternoons a week. My DH is 60 and works 50 + hour weeks. He's EXHAUSTED when he gets home, we are in bed for 8.30-9pm as he's up at 5.

Am I wrong to be angry that she choosing to give birth repeatedly and then say I can only see them if I up my child care hours? I am so lost I don't know what to do. I haven't seen them in over two weeks and I know she will be bad mouthing me.

Do I stuck it up? I'm so confused about everything.

Is there social services involvement?

No, there is no social services involved.

BUT

The gp has asked her in for an appointment a while back "to see how she is doing". She just lies and says that she is fine but then sees another a week later to say she can't cope, then he says she needs more support. She will then bring this to us and say " but the "Drs say you need to help me more" and we were helping more but it's frankly a bit insulting that she's pregnant so quickly again when she's farming the childcare out to me. I'm exhausted. I've got several auto immune diseases as well as my own mental health issues ( that I work very hard on every single day). But I do love my grand kids, I want so much for them to be happy and to break this cycle and for my daughter to get the help she needs.

You're going out drinking twice a week from 4pm with a 14 year old at home?! Who has the fourteen year old on those days?

Apologies! Just realised the fourteen year old is your husband’s child.

Basically you cannot do anything. Have less contact with her. This wont end well if you force it.

Report the abuse and concerns to social services. Dangerous house, smacking including from partner... They will be able to help and monitor

It sounds like she's very troubled and is taking out her difficult family situation on you. But it's her choice to have 3 children in quick succession - you didn't agree to provide childcare for them before she conceived! Yes, she needs support but she shouldn't expect you to drop everything to help.
Where is the boyfriend's family in all this?
I would step back and not get drawn into the situation - to be honest it will only get worse once the baby is born. She is using your relationship with the children as a weapon, if you don't do what she wants she won't let you see them.
I would make it clear to her what you are prepared to do to help, but only do what suits you. Please remember your 14 year old daughter and husband in all this. They should not suffer the consequences of your daughters bad decisions.

It sounds like a situation which is likely to spiral out of control, especially once the third baby arrivies. Is it possible that she suffers from any mental health problems too? She sounds angry, impulsive and immature.

The fact that they are abusing their oldest needs to be brought to the attention of the social services. What they tell you they do is probably not all of it and if they haven't already they will start on the younger ones too soon and it will mess those children up for life.

If they were my grandchildren I wouldn't be able to step away. I would try and be in as close contact as possible, not because you want to help your DD but because somebody needs to have an eye on those children to make sure they are doing OK.

To clarify, my 14 ( 15 in June) yo is an amazing young woman, but she's often out and about with her friends. Her brother is 18 and just gone to university and is doing fabulously . My sister only lives an estate across from me and she lives with two disabled kids of her own. That's why I go to hers for 4-5 hours. My youngest does often come to her aunt's with me to see her cousins or she takes advantage of me not being home for a few hours to have friends in on the ps5 playing her favourite dancing game. Her dad is home 5-6 ish so the house is never empty for long. My youngest doesn't miss out on anything at all, she has a great life and has two holidays a year with us her parents or me and her aunt and her kids. Only one day I go to my sisters is midweek, the other is a weekend day depending on plans we have etc.

I know some people will judge me for drinking twice a week but I'm a high school drop out, a survivor of child hood sexual abuse, domestic violence survivor and ex cocaine addict, I've got tardive dyskinesia, bipolar, CPTSD, RA and sjogrens. Both my parents are alcoholics. Yet I've managed to get a BA, an MA and manage to get through every day despite of all that when a lot people who've been through similar are in much worse states. And I do it with a smile on my face and with love in my heart. If you want to judge you crack on, but even my GP says I'm doing great and I'll take it. I'm not than aware of my own failings and flaws and I'm ok with it.

I can't resort to social services. She would know it's me as her social circle is very small from All the lies she's told. I would never ever be allowed near them again . My DH and I are fully prepared for the day that social services knock at my door though and ask us to take them for what ever reason. Although she's so bitter at times she could possibly say we are dead so they go to strangers. My eldest grand child has just started nursery so I'm hoping that it will be picked up on then.

Her boy friend is quite a troubled young man, lost his own mum young in traumatic circumstances. Their ( him and my daughters) relationship was border line violent at times pre pregnancy but mostly her pushing his emotional buttons and goading him constantly and then him literally pushing her. She's terrified of Abandonment but will push until we have to walk away. Took him a while to realise how best to manage her. They are much better now and he's a good dad apart from him admitting that one time he slapped the eldests hand. And that was admitted to me privately and very much in a " I never ever want this to happen again, what can I do to prevent it " Kind of way.

My daughters rages can be extreme. I know as I've had them myself when I was much younger and it feels like you aren't in control of your own body. I desperately want to help her but she won't engage in therapy as she sees that as admitting she's flawed and she can't do that.

@Snoken she has emotional unstable personality disorder. Very likely CPTSD . Possible ASD or ADHD. ( her brother is autistic but we had no idea how it could present so differently in girls so never realised). And I want to be involved, that's why after two weeks I formulated an apology and hoped it would be enough. But then as soon as I apologised she sees that as "seized power" and charged the goal posts . I had to commit to more childcare, I had to be supervised as I'm apparently a risk to the children. My DH is very much her person, her only sees her through rose tinted glasses but he's horrified by what she has said and apparently will be talking to her today to tell her how wrong she is. My sister will still be allowed to visit so she will be going 1-2 a week for a coffee and just to see how they are doing. But right now nobody is allowed to take the children out of the house in case they allow me to see them.

I understand the dilemma of reporting the abuse and then not being allowed near them to be able to protect them. Does the oldest child go to nursery or a child minder? Anyone else really who could report if there are visable bruises or cuts? If you were to report you will need to have substatial evidence otherwise so that you can be certain the children will be removed from their care. There is always a risk that the abuse ramps up otherwise.

If the children were bruised or had visible injuries I wouldn't hesitate in reporting it. I am hoping that when my eldest starts nursery for 5 afternoons a week it's raised. He's just starting to really come into hood own talking etc but is still very naive and doesn't know what he can say and what he's not supposed to say. Plus he's lashing out at his mum a lot I believe so they will pick up on any irregular hitting habits surely?

Op. You sound like fantastic person and mum. I think your dd (fellowEUPD sufferer here and ASD). Is she bored?

I think boredom is possible, she used to cause some terrible drama through boredom with school. But I think it's just because she likes attention. She thrives off drama just like my mother does. And it's never ever their fault. I always remember my mum coming to me, absolutely FURIOUS as the council were going to evict her from her lovely new retirement flat. Why? Because she hadn't paid her rent for the first month , and then going forward s a month in advance, like she agreed to. 🤷🏼‍♀️. Dozens of phone calls later she finally made half the payment and then called back and made half the payment a few minutes later just so she could say she had won. They both live on a knife edge of late payments and final demands and Im now at a point where I am the exact opposite. I used to be like that, pre therapy. Now I like my life to be as drama free as possible, I like firm boundaries and my bills paid on time, even with a buffer of a few months.

It’s the drama and attention. It’s so addictive

would she be willing to talk to citizens advice bureau or maybe a charity of sorts on her own to help with money and routine with the babies?

don’t drop your daughter. She’s a PITA but she needs a lot of support. It’s so hard

You say her husband is a good dad, but troubled : could you maybe describe him a bit more ? Is he trustworthy ? Happy in the relationship ? Happy with three kids in a row (he must have agreed with that…). Is he genuinely going along or maybe feeling trapped ?

Basically, is there any chance you could have private interactions with him ? If he was willing to come for your advice regarding slapping (does your daughter know he told you?), maybe he’d at least be willing to child proof the house and have an agreement with you to share incidents if she harms the children in anyway. As a starting measure at least.

Do they work ?

Sorry if I missed some things, I’m at work, but this is really sad

And the dad can also share concerns with nursery maybe, although I’d imagine mum would have access to the info, so may need to be careful what he says ? I’m just thinking really short term here, definitely not that this is a viable situation

@SummerDawn2000

The drama is very addictive, I was raised totally in this cycle by my own mother. I told her her DHs best friend was regularly sexually abusing me at 15 years old and she said it tastes 2. She's very toxic ( hence me telling my teenage daughter I would report to social services if she ran away to my mothers in wales). I finally went to the police at 30 not long after my bipolar diagnosis when I found out the man's step daughter had had him convicted of raping her every day from age 7-17. I've fought so hard to try and get myself better and to heal and it's kicking me that my daughter is so like my mother , and also like me as a young adult.

@Godlovesall26

He is a good man but has his own mental health issues. His mum died in front of him age 11 and he was raised by a detached but loving/lost dad. He craves a family. He is trying to set up his own business but lacks the admin skills and is not classed as living with my daughter ( she claims benefits) and this also causes me massive, huge concerns for their financial future. She is very very entitled. He does love my daughter, but I do think think they are possibly trauma bonded. She had treated him terribly at times. Restricting his alcohol intake as she's pregnant, making him cancel plans that don't include her etc. I think he is scared as he sees her cutting people out and is worried it could be him one day. Their relationship can be volatile, but not violent as such in the last 3 years.

She really needs intensive therapy and I've tried everything to make this happen but she won't commit.

I won't be dropping her at all. But right now, I'm b cut out and have no choice. My DH will be dropping the Easter eggs /toys off etc and
Checking they are ok.

Well there is a high degree of manipulation here. Basically you can only be a granny if you do things that she needs you to fulfil.

There are lots of monster situations are they, I know a lady whose daughter will let her only see her children if she pays for the kids private education. How fabulous. It’s a joke really, but it’s a condition. i’m guessing this is very similar to borderline personality disorder. There is an excellent podcast for free by Dr Phil. And he tells people how to actually deal with people that have unstable personality disorder. Phil in the Blanks it’s called around episode 89 of 90 is so. Basically it’s not having you tell the person they ought to do something but it’s really telling them you want this on this, and making them kind of draw conclusion that that’s what they want. You say things like you deserve to be happy, you deserve this, and then outline some actions that are conducive to achieving that. I think there is a particular way to talk in order to get the best results.

I really feel for you because there is a high level of manipulation and that is just heartbreaking to deal with.

@Sittwritt

Thank you, I will look at this dr Phil episode! She can come across as very manipulative but I do understand it's just a way of her meeting her very confused and often misunderstood needs. I do step back as much as possible, and I am 100% her monster. She swings between absurdly loving me and hating me. Doesn't happen with her dad ( my DH) as he just lets her walk rough shod all over him. He DIDN'T tell her today that he was disappointed in her choices. Just kept their daily phone call brief and fine. I really feel like I can't win at all.

Thank you for your answers.
Do you trust him on safeguarding at least though ? As in not hide anything (if she does have a crisis, she may not réalise what she is doing if say she slaps one of the kids God forbid - fact doesn’t change, but he could see it as not her fault) - that’s what I meant by if at least an agreement could be reached between you/dad to contact you any time.

He’s putting himself in a very precarious situation by not declaring his presence, if he ever does need to chase custody. And for now I can’t see how other that a regular job could work with the chaos.

Dear @glasshole you probably can’t because the level of manipulation is so high that it’s way above your pay grade to deal with. You sound like you need peace from this nonsense but it’s so hard when it’s your child. But some level of sanity is required.

Don’t give up who you are and what you do. Manipulation coupled with control can get the abuser to a place they want you - in turmoil and head messed up, like theirs. Keep going out, have friends, don’t give into their hissy fit one bit.

14yr olds don’t need childcare. What on Earth is wrong with doing that? My 14yr old has been able to stay home alone for a couple of years now.

Well I posted this as this is the longest we've ever not spoken for. It's pushing 3 weeks and it's NEVER gone this long previously. This morning she has face timed her dad ( my DH ) and is full of the joys of spring. I was allowed to see the kids in camera and then she was suddenly talking to me like everything is ok. I haven't seen her face, but I've seen my grand babies. I'm quite proud of the fact that In this it's me that's not backed down. I'm not going to apologise to her, and she's likely not going to apologise to me but I think this is the start of things getting back to normal . Until next time it all happens anyway. These huge episodes don't happen very often, normally it's a much smaller fall out on her part as 99% of the time I don't feed into/give her attention for her health concerns, family/friends fall out etc. I just nod and make the right noises as other wise nothing I say is right. So this is the first time I've been stopped seeing them for more than a few days. I'm desperately hoping it's the last time.

Well this afternoon my daughter texted me , we exchanged brief but polite messages and I said I loved her. and within 4 hours she's been admitted to hospital with 1st a suspected miscarriage but then it's charged to suspected stomach issues that may require surgery.

I'm going to take bets that it doesn't require any surgery at all and she well be discharged tomorrow with advice of bed rest. This will be to help me forget how she's treated me as quickly as possible ( as I will be a concerned mum) and to enable to "step up" and provide the support with the childcare that she's been demanding. Ironically I was quite glad about seeing the kids and her messaging me and then my 14 yo said after the messages the eldest messaged her asking her to stay over to help with the kids and she called me a cunt. I wasn't shocked, but I am hurt and that's why I think this is all planned. But I've got to go along with it to see the kids.

So I'm going to smile and nod and offer one over night every two weeks. Then one morning midweek. One afternoon midweek after nursery. She can think I'm a cunt all day long but I need to see those kids. I know I would never ever bad mouth her to anybody with words like that. I would never do it. She just can't seem to help herself.

Simply stop letting her manipulate you. She is an emotional abuser.

I am aware of that but I have a duty to my grand children surely? Or am I supposed to just walk away from them?