I feel so sad for people [usually women] when they are treated this way.

[cupofteaandabiccyplease]

Read so frequently about women in particular looking forward to getting married and the big build up. First child arrives and spouse changes sometimes for the worse, becomes lazy and selfish. The marriage limps along with an increase in problems until one says that's it I'm off. Divorce, break down in relationships with non resident parent [not interested etc] and dc being parented by one parent who has to be mum and dad. Full kudos to all single parents.
I guess I'm sad for the fact sometimes life can be shit for so many usually women left to pick up the piece.
I've been there got the t shirt etc. finally got my happy ever after but so many won't and that makes me sad for them .

Yup, so much of it going around.

If we all threw away the outdated notion of having to have children, our lives would be considerably less constrained and our freedom from oppression less volatile.

Same goes for other things tbf... like don't venture into a business with your partner. Unless you can afford for it to fail.

I'm sure people will say 'but the onus is on the man to step up'. Yes, but we know they so often don't. That they often change (or, don't, to your dismay) when kids are introduced. And then you're fucked. It's harder to leave, and they know it.

So, don't have kids. It really is that simple. We aren't owed children. We don't need them. And whilst we keep having them, we will always be vulnerable to at best, domestic servitude and at worst - abuse.

Find other dreams.
Date nice men. And when they stop being nice, get rid. Don't do anything that'll make it really hard for you to do that.

Keep working even when married, make sure you ring-fence any money that's yours in your own bank accounts, and only marry if you are prepared to divorce and would be able to sustain yourself on half the marital assets or less afterwords.

People are changeable. Not just men. So don't do anything that ties you to them perminantly.

I know a couple of women this has happened to. It is sad when I look back and remember their excitement for the wedding and their dreams of creating a family together. The women I knew had no idea how useless their men would be once kids arrived!
I have to say I also know a couple of families where the women are a bit useless! My friend doesn't work and does very little in the house. Her husband works full time and does all the cleaning, cooking, shopping and laundry.

And to those who would say they don't regret their kids even though their ex is a total bastard: of course you don't regret someone you already have and love.

But if you don't have then already, I'd urge you to protect yourself by never doing so.

Yeh, to be honest, women's achilles heal is that they need to have children by a certain age and they need to have some financial support. Men aren't ever going to be left holding the baby on their own and they can (in theory if they can attract a woman) postpone parenting. these two factors really put women on the back foot when it comes to power in leaving a marriage.

I think there should be an agency set up like a dating agency where you submit your ideals and agree to enter in to a legally binding co-parenting arrangement. You don't fall out, you don't fight over custody, you get half the week parenting, half the week free to earn and live. A deposit is paid by both parties up front. If the father didn't step up and meet his childcare responsibilities money would be re-apportioned out of his deposit to the mother.

I don't think it's true that nobody ever regrets the children they have. I can understand that my life would have been a lot easier if I hadn't had my second child and i do love him but if he wasn't here, I'd be enjoying that easy life, probably wishing my dc1 had a sibling but I'd have got over that.

@xPaz makes an extremely good point:

“Yeh, to be honest, women's achilles heal is that they need to have children by a certain age and they need to have some financial support. Men aren't ever going to be left holding the baby on their own and they can (in theory if they can attract a woman) postpone parenting. these two factors really put women on the back foot when it comes to power in leaving a marriage.”

No doubt, the ticking of the female body clock does lead to some women having children with suboptimal partners.

It feels like we are in a strange limbo, where the expectations of women is sitting on both extremes.

We are the ones that look after the children.
We are now also independent and can make our own money.

Often women pick one or the other - without a great partner (or v solid network), it seems you cannot achieve both.

Mumsnet does highlight the worst cases where the women end up with the kids, no work experience, no money, no time, no earning potential. Vicious cycle.

I think our Achillies heel is that we've been convinced we need children at all . It's all a big brainwashing scam designed to keep us vulnerable. And we perpetuate it even amongst ourselves. It keeps us down. It makes us marry the wrong men and 'settle'.

We need to reclaim the word 'woman' as independent of 'mother'. To tell our daughters of the dangers of pregnancy, childbirth and the life it can potentially lead us trapped in. To teach them that they are enough and talk to them of the world of possibilities and adventures out there.

To discourage lives of servitude to another. Which, although we love our kids, is a large part of motherhood.

It takes tremendous strength to be a mum and not lose the rest of who you are. And there are some, few, but some, for whom it is absolutely the right journey. But lets he honest, the majority of people who have kids...probably shouldn't have.

All you have to do is wander onto the relationships section or a comment thread of a woman ‘just venting’ on a Facebook mums group and you will find that there are women out there are settling for men who literally need to be yeeted from the gene pool.

I am absolutely not talking about the abusers who mask, love bomb then do a complete 180 when their narcissism can’t deal with a tiny infant coming first- before anyone cries ‘victim blaming’.

Due persistent social conditioning of ‘be kiiiiind!’ ‘Give him a chance!’ and generational pressure that certain stuff is ‘our job’ and men just aren’t good at that: women are shagging useless fuckers and in turn giving their children useless fathers.

knuckle draggers who have the facade of modern men, but need to be project managed to perform chores in the house, never cook unless they get kudos for being the ‘chef’ and are too lazy to do the little things when it’s ‘their turn’ like separating the colours in the wash.

I have never seen a genuine ‘50/50’, kind man, who respects the need for the drudgework morph into a bastard post children. Those who were shit to begin with, yes, they get shitter.

a partner should genuinely add value and enhance your life- it’s a two way street too. But if you EVER need to mummy a man, he won’t be a good dad. Maybe a fun one, a ‘loving’ one- but at the detriment of your mental health.

reject settling.
empower women to understand that pets, friends, hobbies and a fab career is ENOUGH.

it’s no good saying ‘well, men to change’ either. They absolutely should. But these men don’t want to stop playing fifa or training for triathlons whilst you slowly lose your mind and yourself.

Yup. We all need to make it clear to our daughters that not having kids is a perfectly excellent valid life choice. Pestering for grandchildren is the worst thing any parent can do.

You've got a really good point OP and I agree with what you say

I also firmly believe that this is why the birthrate in the UK is falling. It's now 1.6 children per woman which is not sustainable obviously.

Many many women are stopping at one child when they see how unhelpful their partner is towards the childcare/drudge work. So although a lot of women are trapped - a lot are also fully aware and not having any more children.

Yes, I'm one of those women. Single mother, no break and they see their father rarely, although they keep in touch.
I have undergone an incredible amount of mental suffering due to feeling trapped. I had a life, a great career with foreign travel, an adventurous spirit and lots of friends before having children.
Life became very small - for so many years under a kind of house arrest with two irrational, fussy, fighting, and self interested little children (as all young humans tend to be.)
It can do easily be the death of you, at least in spirit to be doing that all day, having 24/7 responsibility. Truly crushing.

I'm working on building myself back up.
I often think I would have been okay with one child, but for me, the gates to hell opened with the second one.

I do my best, but it's such a limiting life, even now with the youngest being 11.

My DH used to do plenty of DIY and decorating when we were first together, while I did all cleaning and shopping.
20+ years on I still do the cleaning and shopping, he doesn’t do the DIY/decorating anymore.
Personally I’d never get married again, I’d work towards buying my own home.

It’s funny that some of you have used the word trapped. I feel trapped in my marriage right now. Yes, I could divorce, but that comes with downsides.

I had children because I wanted them. I’d have had them single if I didn’t have a partner. Thankfully I did have a partner and he’s still a fantastic dad and husband. But whatever else had happened in my life, I’d still have wanted children.

I don’t have DCs. It didn’t stop my ex fucking off with his 20 year younger assistant. The midlife crisis is real folks.

This thread is making me feel much less guilty about how happy I am that DD(14) is 99% sure she's a lesbian and never wants children! Plenty of time for her feelings to change I realise but I'm really hoping they don't. I worry sometimes that I'm too open with her about the realities of being a woman but the sort of things we discuss are all being mentioned here so maybe not, at least she'll be prepared.

But on the brightside, you hopefully never have to see the wanker again as there are no shared kids.

Omg this is me, my husband or ex now just dropped the bomb shell wednesday saying that it... basically blaming me, and how our 23 months child with his needs (waiting for assessment) size of the house, not forgetting me taking on his 2 teenagers that went through courts as their mum has problems and unfit and his children needs. Worse thing is he wont leave the house which is in my name and its breaking my sole

Thing is, it's all so fucked up. Many women do want children, some don't. That's fine.

But we often don't know what we are really getting in to. I didn't. My poor mother, she had six of us.

It seems that culturally, a mother's love and bond with her infant is exploited to the max, so we end up intensively mothering for many years longer than our evolution as a species can cope with, without 'losing ourselves' in an attempt to be a 'good' mother. We can become institutionalised in motherhood due to the intensity, the duration and the cultural pressure of the mother role.

I think it's all utterly toxic and it's great we can talk about it here.

A mother's love and bond with her child is exploited by our culture to milk us of all we've got to support men and children to thrive.

This didn't happen to me in the way you describe. Both my exs were hands on when I had children.
The problem was when we split up. And we didn't split up because things limped along. First ex - we grew apart massively as we were teenagers when we got together. I still loved him as a person, but the romantic love had gone as we didn't have anything in common other than a child. Second ex cheated and the split came out of nowhere really. He was the primary parent and I worked FT to his PT. I probably did take on most of the mental load but he was good in many ways.
But both of them were useless post separation -which came as a great surprise considering as co-parents in a relationship, they weren't lacking. First ex still sees son (7 when we split and he is now 21). But he didn't do much in the way of parenting. None of this EOW and half of holidays. He would pick him up once a week or every other week from school and drop him back the next day. That was the extent of it.
Second ex just walked away completely when I was pregnant with the youngest and had a 2 year old with him. Kids are 10 and 7 now and haven't seen him since he walked out. 7 year old never met him.
To this day I am still shocked at how they turned out after the split.

Wait till he goes to work and change the locks. Drop his stuff round his mums. If he kicks off, call the police.

It's sad mainly because of the social conditioning of thinking that for a woman, success looks like a happy romantic relationship and children.

I love my child, I'm so glad he exists. It sucks ass that I won't get to see him everyday after divorce, but I'm glad he exists. The breakdown of the relationship doesn't suck so hard because it is not, and never has been, my entire life.

The thing to do I recon is use yours 20s to aim for financial stability; buy a house; find a partner who you love and shares your values; someone who would make a good husabnd AND someone who would make a good co-parenting ex. Then crack on, making sure to keep your hobbies and job and friends. When the relationship goes to shit you'll hopefully be left with well adjusted children, a nice social and work life, a house.

I wish this is what I had done, anyway! As it stands, I was raised to think that it's romantic to stay with the first person you date forever, and exrelationships are a failure.

I think low birth rate is nothing to do with rubbish partner alone.

It's due to a lack of community, lack of childcare help, lack of respect to women, mothers and children, poor maternity pay and leave, lack of child friendly culture.

I really believe couples would think much harder about having kids if it was agreed before TTC that both would share the mother’s load, perhaps starting with shared parental leave. Then things like both doing part-time and taking the financial/career sacrifices that come with it; splitting drop offs and pick ups - including when the nursery calls saying their child is unwell and needs to be picked up. It’s just a given that the mother does hence we tend to always get the call and usually take more of the hit on our attendance record and say it’s not a good time to go for a promotion. I know this does not happen 100% of the time and kudos to men splitting the load, especially if it’s pretty much 50:50. But I’ve yet to see it truly split personally. For balance, I know loads of great fathers and husbands/partner who might cook, do the laundry perhaps on the weekend, but there’s just so much to parenthood and that load that we often forget we do. To be honest, I didn’t help myself by letting my other half be ‘nervous’ when dressing the first baby when a newborn etc. Start as you mean to go on.