So he's a covert narcissist..

[DivorcingEU]

Thanks to MN I've come to the understanding that my - hopefully - STBX is a covert narc. For some reason I googled it this morning and came up with a lot of questionnaires about it. I filled them all in on his behalf and they strongly came out as positive. About the only thing he doesn't do is be smug at parties, but he rarely goes to them anyway.

This man has completely broken me, over and over again. I used to be resilient and would dust myself off and forge on. I just can't now. He's done something that has meant I can't continue my degree this year. Im so heartbroken I can't even talk about it. My desk still has all my papers on it and I can't touch them. My studies are my only chance at a half-decent job and for the third year I've had to stop..and it's a part time degree.

I've also discovered that my DS who is a bubbly, popular boy and always has been, has times where he feels entirely worthless, to the point he doesn't feel worthy of seeing his good friends, because of his DF. This is exactly what he did to me, only it wasn't moments, it was years. I've managed to pick DS out of these moments because I know him very well and know the feeling even better.

I'm kind of just moaning and musing. I'm so sad though. It took me ages and ages (I mean years) to understand what a covert narc really was. Probably actually not fully understood until I saw the questions on the questionnaires. To me it was just normal behaviour and I was weak and wrong (my mother is a mixture of overt and covert narc). It was like separating oxygen molecules from the air around me.

I'd love to have finished my studies, have my career and have the last 16 years of my life back. People talk about learning from bad experiences, growing from what they've learned. I've not. I've just diminished over time to the point I'm a hollow version of who I used to be. The only thing I've learned is that suffering doesn't always end, not for everybody. I've learned that people care if you have an emergency and suffer, but they can't care long term, not really, not enough (and I don't blame them either). At the end of the day there's nobody to rely on apart from yourself and if your self has been destroyed, you're pretty much screwed.

But no matter what, the one causing the damage is always, and will always, be fine, because they set their lives up to get what they want in a way that no matter what, they always get it.

By recognising what has been going on in your life and beginning to think about making changes, you have already come further than you realise.

Now consider leaving with your son and show him and yourself what it means to be loved unconditionally.

I think realising that all the crap he says and does has absolutely no basis in reality is quite overwhelming, especially if you've been in it for a long time.

I'd love to say, "Do this" and then everything will be fine. But sadly, it doesn't work like that. You are going to have to work through this. One of the reasons men like this suck you in is because they press the right buttons for YOU and people like you. So, for example, SIL is slowly slowly extricating herself from hers but his crap never worked on me. For a long time, I was the only person in the extended family saying, "hang on, why is everyone agreeing with BIL on this shit?"

You do need to make actual and concrete plans to leave and do so asap. Be prepared for him to try to refuse. On a lighter note, we like to play, "Batshit Bingo" with some of exBIL's statements. Basically, take some of the more outrageous statements and then laugh hysterically, use them on each other etc. eg, DH and I kept ourselves entertained for weeks with, "So, you expect ME to look after our child so that YOU can work". I have others but they're more specific and/or outing.

Also, TELL people. TELL them all the things. So often they get away with it because so much of the behaviour is hidden. The ridiculous things they make you do so that they feel "secure", the obnoxious comments they make to/about you... they are hidden. You feel shame or like you deserved them so you don't tell anyone. But let me tell you, a quick glance through SIL's text messages was devastating for her because the rest of us were recoiling in horror whereas she wasn't even sure if she had a right to be upset.

No one can diagnose anyone of being a narcissist except a psychiatrist, psychologist, or a mental health specialist. No one on mumsnet especially!

I do get it OP. I was in a horrible, horrible relationship with a complete bastard for a long time, and when we split up, I desperately tried to find a label for him. I thought sociopath and narcissist fit him perfectly.

As time has gone on, however, I think that me diagnosing him hasn't really helped me long term to get over him. For one thing, I'm not qualified to do that. Secondly, it simplifies who he is and what he did- He was just a twat who treated me (and others) terribly. The more I've unpicked his behaviour, the less useful having a label has been- Humans are complicated, and I'm increasingly realising that he really does justify his behaviour to himself, he honestly thinks he's the victim in this. I'm now at a point where I pity him for this- I don't forgive him at all, and I don't like him- But I know he'll never really be happy or satisfied. Even if he seems successful and contented, I know him, and I know he's not really capable of relaxing into the world and into the society of others.

I think even if it isn't a 'diagnosis' as such, the realisation of the roots behind his behaviours is really eye opening. It can give clarity after years of fog created by the other person. Whether or not they're truly a 'narcissist' is irrelevant really, it's a process of understanding that his behaviour is not your fault, you weren't crazy, and you can begin to heal.

But no matter what, the one causing the damage is always, and will always, be fine, because they set their lives up to get what they want in a way that no matter what, they always get it.

It can look that way but inside they'll always be the weak willed, fragile little shits who have to put others down, and all the rest, to try and make themselves feel better. They can't get away from themselves. Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

I would advise that you don't discuss any of what you've worked out and your feelings with him, grey rock is the way forward.

It is so hard, and the work on yourself can only start once you begin to understand what happened. I've been divorced from my narcissistic xh for 5 years but it is really only in the last year I've really come to terms with it all.

I am a different person now, I've learnt about myself and my boundaries and I've developed a quiet confidence because I know my worth. It's a long journey though, but you will get there

Thanks. Part of his control over me is via him stopping me leaving. I'm not in the UK and cannot move anywhere. He has to move out and so far he's simply not. In Sept 2020 he said he'd definitely move out in summer 2022. He's still here. My lawyer is working on things but Corona has caused backlogs at court here too so that's suiting him just fine.

MsMarch I know what you mean in that not everybody falls for it, but it's also true that these men don't show their true sides to everybody - to most people. He is the nicest, kindest, most respectful man out in public. I told one mutual friend (who was generally more my friend) a few years ago about things that were going on and he couldn't believe me. He said he knew I wasn't making it up because he knew I wouldn't, but that it was so incredibly different from what he knew of OH he couldn't get his head around it.

If OH had behaved like he has, told me I shouldn't have a career because I'm a wife and mother etc. when I first met him, I'd never have gone anywhere near him. But he kept those things close to his chest. He behaved in ways that are unreasonable and then blamed them on me. Each and every one..while undermining my self confidence in everything from housecleaning to my past achievements to my first degree subject. Everything. He watched what I ate because he "cared about my health". He never said I was overweight (I wasn't anyway) but he'd watch what I ate and refuse to touch my belly when we were in bed. He praised me in public. I mean what people saw was so different - plus he wasn't trying to control any of them. The only person he wants to control is me and once the kids appeared, them too.

So yes maybe you wouldn't have fallen for it, but then again maybe you'd also have seen us as a couple and thought how lovely he was, how generous he is to support me not working and how kind he is when I'm being unreasonable (it's entirely reasonable when you know what's going on at home!). Not one person has seen through it btw, nobody said "Oh, I did wonder" or something like that when I told them. They've all been shocked (only told a few friends on my side and that one he is also friends with).

And yes, it'll take me years to work through it all. I've been raped multiple times (not by him) and can say it's seriously impacted my life. This man who never laid a finger on me has destroyed me. Some days I've cried because if he would just hit me, leave some marks, the police here would get involved and either he'd have to move, out or the kids and I could move to a shelter. But he's not physically violent so it doesn't count. I don't really want to be hit either, but to have nothing visible means it basically doesn't exist. And that enables him to carry on as he likes.

Nobody diagnosed him on MN. I read posts about others here and had some suggestions on my own posts to look at covert narcissism.

You could say he's not a covert narc. It doesn't matter. His behaviours, however, match almost all of those listed under covert narcissism. The destruction doesn't come from the label, it comes from the clusterfuck of behaviours I've been living with.

I feel the same as you and that combined with the menopause I’m just a shell of the person I was.

I have been seeing a highly experienced chartered clinical psychologist since I instigated divorce. She now thinks he’s a narcissist with some psychopathic behaviours, although he presents as a fun and charming person.

There are two thoughts that are keeping me going through his manipulations in our divorce.

Firstly, that once the divorce is final I can get away from him, buy myself a house and live a life that’s just for me. Once I have that peace of mind I will be able to concentrate on my own mental health and general well-being.

Secondly, although he has broken me, because he is a narcissist he will be feeling a lot of hurt simply because I just don’t want to be with him anymore. Never underestimate their fragile egos. This is probably the worst thing that could happen to him, and the world now knows his own wife of 30 years wants out.

What you’re really saying OP is that he’s abusive. Internet buzzwords such as “narc” are meaningless.

@DivorcingEU My apologies, I did not mean to suggest that I'm better than you and don't fall for it and other people do. What I meant is that he TARGETED you. Consciously, or subconsciously, he CHOSE you because he wanted to find someone he could abuse and manipulate.

And you are absolutely right that so often these men get away with it because to the outside world, it all looks great. Which is EXACTLY what happened with SIL (mostly). And in fact, a key reason he is currently completely melting down is because where before he could manipulate everyone around her, that's falling apart for him as the rest of the world wakes up to his behaviour, and he can't get his head around it.

I am sorry that this abusive man (narcissist or not, that's what he is) is still so entrenched that you are struggling to get people to believe you. If it's any consolation, I believe you. I wish I could help you get him out of your life and your home. All I can say is you're on the right path becuase you're not buying his crap anymore. You should be proud of yourself.

Well the label yes. But "abusive" takes on different dimensions. Why do we separate out psychological abuse from physical abuse or sexual abuse? It's all abuse, right? Why in fact do we even bother to label anything? Red and green are both colours, so why differentiate? Or between pink and red? We divide and label things to be more precise and get our meanings conveyed better. We don't have to describe pink as "the colour of the postbox with the colour of snow mixed in it". Everybody knows what "pink" is.

I don't care if he has a mental illness or not. I'm not trying to diagnose him. The words "covert narcissism" relate to certain behaviours - and not others. It therefore also relates to a certain type of emotional abuse. If you wish to generalise it as "abusive" you're not wrong, but I'm referring to some very specific, long standing behaviours that happen to have been given this label by someone.

Also, you may ask why I seem to need to label it. I can understand that. The answer is that I've lived in a fog of everything I think and feel being wrong, for years. It is disorienting when you can no longer trust how you think or feel. It's unbelievably hard to know what is even abusive and not because you don't where "up" is any more. I couldn't even tell if I was ill (as in the flu) or not because I wasn't sure if I was just making up muscle weakness, a temperature and raging headache. Or maybe I did really feel them, but I was exaggerating how bad I was because I was lazy and wanted to stay in bed. But, could I actually get out of bed? I didn't think so, but that could just be that I wasn't trying hard enough...and so on.

So I need a handle to hold onto to help me steady myself and get me standing again. If I were to it's "abusive" then that's my judgement. I've made a judgement about the behaviour. And I can't entirely trust that. If there's a name someone has given to a list of behaviours that I have examples of him doing, multiple times over an extended period, then it's hard even for me to think I'm making it up.

His specific behaviours come under a title that someone, somewhere called "covert narcissism". It's not going on court documents or his medical records. It's not a diagnosis. It's just being used to help me understand that I'm not over sensitive and I haven't imagined it and to help me convey what has been going on in my life. I only see that as a positive.

If it's any consolation, I believe you. I wish I could help you get him out of your life and your home. All I can say is you're on the right path becuase you're not buying his crap anymore. You should be proud of yourself.
That's nice - made me well up. Thank you.

I understand the importance for people who’ve been in toxic, destructive relationships to be able to stand back, unpack and define what they’ve experienced. It’s precisely for that reason that I think it’s important to call a spade a spade wrt abuse.

The problem with the label of narcissism is that a) everyone has narcissistic traits to some degree - it’s a spectrum, b) it gets very confused with NPD which is a serious mental health diagnosis and c) it’s perfectly possible to be a narcissist - whether covert or overt and not be abusive.

What you have said here suggests that your ex was abusive with narcissistic traits. Imo it would be as helpful to read up on different types of abusers and abuse as different kinds of narcissism. It could also potentially be helpful to
find a therapist who specialises in domestic abuse, or to enrol on the Freedom programme for example. To contemplate those pathways to help and recovery you’d have to be clear that abuse is what you experienced.

What you have said here suggests that your ex was abusive with narcissistic traits. Imo it would be as helpful to read up on different types of abusers and abuse as different kinds of narcissism. It could also potentially be helpful to find a therapist who specialises in domestic abuse,

I have done all those things.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you're responding to me in good faith. As such I'd like to explain that it's not helpful. I've already said that I've had my reality undermined constantly for years to a very damaging degree. I've stated that the behaviours I've been subjected to fit snugly with a list that has a name. You come along and tell me that you know better, that I've possibly misunderstood, not done enough research etc.

Even if you were right - and you're not - why would you want to come along and undermine my understanding of my own experience? I'm not suggesting I can't be challenged on things, but on this thing, here, why would you think you understand it better than me? You imply I'm not able to make the judgement on what his behaviours directed at me over years are, yet you, who I'm guessing has never met him, certainly never been in an intimate relationship with him (and I know that for sure btw), can determine that he's not actually a narcissist, he just has "narcissistic traits".

I hope that correcting me, letting me know that my judgement is a bit off-kilter and that you know better has made you feel good in some way. At least then it has helped one of us.

I’m sorry you feel that way, it was not my intention to upset you.

It’s simply that I’ve seen so many women fall into the trap of diagnosing narcissism rather than abuse, I was trying to alert you to that pitfall.

Your OP states that you Googled some questionnaires and decided your ex was a “covert narc”, without reference to abuse.

It’s not even clear what you mean by this term.

It could mean: a. You think he had NPD - which divides into ‘covert’ and ‘overt’ narcissism. Or b. You don’t think he had NPD (or you recognise you can’t diagnose it), you think he was narcissistic.

If the latter I haven’t disagreed with you. A ‘narcissist’ is a person with ‘narcissistic traits’, unless used in the technical sense to refer to a person with diagnosed NPD.

If the latter I haven’t disagreed with you. A ‘narcissist’ is a person with ‘narcissistic traits’, unless used in the technical sense to refer to a person with diagnosed NPD.

How many people with NPD are actually diagnosed though? When they're never at fault and it's always someone else's behaviour that's wrong, they don't think "Hey, something's wrong in my life. I have problems with so many people, it must be something I'm doing. I'll go to the GP and ask for a referral to a clinical psychologist." Basically, if that happened, it would pretty much be an indication that they don't have NPD! It's generally only in a forensic setting that they'd get diagnosed, or possibly if they were sectioned. Splitting hairs over the online diagnosis of this sort of behaviour seems pretty pointless anyway.

As is the idea that anybody could be in a long term intimate relationship with someone like this and not be damaged by it (you said not all narcs are abusive). I'd say that these non-abused people are lucky enough that they haven't yet realised the damage that's been/is being done. It doesn't mean the narcissistic person isn't abusive. It means they're so abusive the victim can't see what's going on.

These people are dangerous to be in an intimate relationship with. There's no emotionally safe way to relate to someone who will manipulate you to get their needs met. Always. And actively not care that they're hurting you. Ever.