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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Immature, needy mother

43 replies

ThisSortOfThing · 12/01/2023 17:56

Hi,
I'm 51 and my mother is 77
I'm quite drained at the moment by our latest encounter
I just need vent and hopefully someone to hear me!
I'm very low contact with mum- and nearly 200 miles away- but I just can't bear this relationship
she's a child- she's latched onto various unsuitable partners throughout my adult life and she's badgered kind, older people (even one who was dying) and got by by having meltdowns and eliciting (guilt-ridden) help. she's not malicious per se, just utterly helpless and will throw herself at people with no shame!! of course it's incredibly manipulative though not actually a conscious plan if you see what i mean. she has no concept of how she impacts others
she's tried numerous times to get admitted to psych ward- succeeded once- she's also feigned a suicide attempt- had to admit to docs that she hadnt really taken lots of tablets!
used to say she'd commit suicide if not for me and my brother- we were in our 20s- it's all so draining and manipulative (albiet unwittingly)
she wants people to look after her- she has never been able to function properly in the world
she does have a low opinion of herself- she's definitely not a narcissist, but this makes me feel so shit for her- so sorry for her but at the same time i feel so depressed around her, so on tenterhooks that i'm making myself very unhappy
years ago she stayed for 3 months with my brother's in-laws (he was mortified)- brother's MIL severely disabled- wheelchair but mum never bothered to go visit her once she'd left- she just takes and is utterly self-absorbed
she can be kind especially to animals but i guess she has the sort of selfishness you'd expect from a child
It's her MO- and it does work- you just can't expect the same people to hang around!
she was adopted as a baby and i'm damn certain she has borderline personality disorder, no doubt as a result of this (her childhood was not happy- her sibling was a natural daughter and quite probably treated differently)- so i do understand why but i can't bear her
she's either really needy- i MUST see the grandchildren (they are teens), occasionally very jolly (and i always get bloody lulled) and sometimes absolutely vile- she's screamed at me, yelled while my kids were there- just the number of meltdowns in my life- no boundaries- she would phone me in my 20s to say how dreadful her life was; she would have hysterics the minute i visited- from 220 miles away- obviously i did not enjoy seeing her as it made me incredibly depressed.
she recovers spontaneously from these episodes while the recipient is a mess!!
about 5 years ago she came up to "help" as i was very down- i tend not to show things too much and it became clear that she was not in a good place. she was horrible to me- so not actually much help at all!-culminating in a meltdown- she called my fucking in-laws who i'm not close to! it was awful- i was so numb and kept my cool but at the same time had a moment of great clarity and went no contact, it was bliss for 3 to 4 years and then i let her back in and it's just shit again but i dont really have a good reason to end it this time!
she's nowhere near as bad as she was- she knows not to be- but it's still her underneath
she has actually been married the last 10 years- he's quite similar- long-term psych problems and has his poor daughter pandering to him- they're a right fucking pair!!
i know i cannot change her and i know she has no comprehension of the effects of her behaviour- despite exhausting attempts in my 20s and 30s to explain. she's very dismissive of having any impact which can be crushing.
the other side of the coin is that she knows she has to behave better in order to have a relationship, so she does try- but, of course every so often she can't sustain it.
i've been steadily reducing my antidepressant- i explained this to her and that i was feeling crap and it was a necessary evil and would take some time. she started calling me, saying she wanted to come up, must see the grandchildren and i could tell she was having a down and was completley consumed by herself again- how i was feeling was forgotten and i hate that her happiness depends on my family.
whnever she's coming up i dread it for weeks- i always put on a front but it's taking a huge toll- she stays with my brother- i cant have her here- no bloody way
if i could erase myself from her memory- i would!! life was so much easier without her in it
it's just the shit dance we do!
i feel guilty- she expects a wonderful mum/daughter relationship but doesnt realise i cant manufacture it - she is massively entitled- around money as well as people- quite frankly disgusts me
but sometimes i feel so sorry for her- and thats how i left her- it was a family event- i could tell she was feeling bad but i cant go there- i have to look after myself. i had totally steeled myself over weeks for that event- i waste so much of my life doing that- i know i need to work on myself
i know NC is prob the best but i cannot do the guilt- i wish i'd never got back in contact after she was horrible to me! she knows to be careful- but she still does and says things that completely trigger me.
if this were any other relationship it would have ended 30 years ago!
sorry really long- it's the first time i've written it down and i might repost to stately homes but thought i'd try here first
i dont think im after advice as such as i know what the problem is, i know she'll never change etc
i just dont want to feel so miserable and so bloody guilty- i felt like i was kicking a kitten this weekend by not being the daughter she wants and chatting to her more but i'm terrified of giving an inch as she will take more
lastly, although i dont think i can say i like her, i guess i do love her which is why i feel so yucky when i think of her all miserable ugh!! it's shit!

OP posts:
ThisSortOfThing · 12/01/2023 18:02

sorry! one more thing- i tend to grey rock around and as i said, low contact- but feel like this is worse for both of us- death by a thousand small cuts- as i'm basically semi-ghosting her- i mean it's not fair on her and i do feel guilty about that- i'm constantly buffeting her away or grey "rocking"!! she'll pick up on this

OP posts:
TicketMasterMind · 12/01/2023 18:12

She’s highly manipulative. Likely Histrionic PD or mix of the cluster Bs.

She knows exactly what she’s doing as she adapts to your boundaries - why do you think she is unconscious of this?

ShakespearesBlister · 12/01/2023 18:12

You know there's only one answer and you don't need a reason. You already have one - you don't want her in your life again. You can't just have the nice bits with people like this unfortunately.

ThisSortOfThing · 12/01/2023 18:23

@TicketMasterMind thank you- i do see the paradox in that she is able to frame (as we say up north!) and alter her behaviour if she's really in shit with someone. for her the main thing is not to be abandoned, so she will behave better if the consequences demand. interesting what you say re histrionic- that's definitely a part of my armchair diagnosis!
thank you @ShakespearesBlister you're right of course- i know this- i just dont know if i can handle the guilt but none of this is getting easier as she gets older

OP posts:
Edinburghmusing · 12/01/2023 18:28

She knows what she’s doing

ThisSortOfThing · 12/01/2023 18:29

i think the problem is that i tread a line between not wanting her to know how i feel about her cos it's hurtful, and wanting her to know exactly how i feel about her so that she doesn't impose on my life
it's not winnable!

OP posts:
Edinburghmusing · 12/01/2023 18:31

The whole point is putting you in a position where you can’t win. That is her goal.

TicketMasterMind · 12/01/2023 18:32

ThisSortOfThing · 12/01/2023 18:29

i think the problem is that i tread a line between not wanting her to know how i feel about her cos it's hurtful, and wanting her to know exactly how i feel about her so that she doesn't impose on my life
it's not winnable!

She’s got you exactly where she wants you - push and pull.

What is the cost of this dynamic to your own MH and the finite emotional energy you have left to invest and nurture your own family?

Who are the priorities in your life?

ThisSortOfThing · 12/01/2023 18:33

thanks @Edinburghmusing corroborating what previous poster said- it does give me food for thought- but, honestly, she is such a child- i just don't know if she has the capacity to really know what she's doing. i'm not making excuses- i would prefer that you were correct. it does make me feel better to even consider this though

OP posts:
NeuroWasabi · 12/01/2023 18:35

I don't think anyone would blame you for stepping back from her completely. You deserve to be happy and it seems like that would be very difficult with her in your life.

Has she ever tried counselling or similar? I don't know how advisable it is, but I'd be tempted to write her a letter detailing exactly how you think and feel about her. You obviously love her and if she knew your perspective she may be able to change? I suppose that this could also cause problems.. it's just an idea, but supposing she would qualify for some kind of diagnosis, there must be advised ways of dealing with family members with those traits.

Edinburghmusing · 12/01/2023 18:36

Does she have a learning disability which means she is medically considered to have the understanding of a child?

im going to guess no

she has made her choices not to address her emotional growth

of course she knows what she’s doing - who else has been making it do it for the last 51 years?

ThisSortOfThing · 12/01/2023 18:37

TicketMasterMind · 12/01/2023 18:32

She’s got you exactly where she wants you - push and pull.

What is the cost of this dynamic to your own MH and the finite emotional energy you have left to invest and nurture your own family?

Who are the priorities in your life?

yeah- you're right 100%- the cost is dear and obvs when kids are involved the stakes go up. i do my damndest not to show my kids how i feel- parenting 101 is surely dont make your kids feel unnecessarily shit! thanks again- i need that straight talking-

OP posts:
ThisSortOfThing · 12/01/2023 18:46

@NeuroWasabi thanks for kind message. she won't have counselling- i dont think she considers that behaves badly now- it's all in the past- thing is she does behave better- but cos it suits as pp said.
i mean i have wrung myself out as a young woman trying to get her to understand- if i felt a bit stronger now maybe i'd have another go before NC but i have to feel v strong for that
@Edinburghmusing you're right- no learning disability- but a bad childhood BUT i do believe that you have to put something in in life and she has never, ever tried. obviously i'm not stable myself (who would be with a mum like that!) but i have, sometimes, pushed myself and developed somewhat into an adult which is better than nothing (and i have a good relationship with my kids which i pray lasts)

OP posts:
Fraaahnces · 12/01/2023 19:13

it sounds like you have a very thorough understanding of her. If she does indeed have a cluster B/histrionic PD, (sounds like it), she really is stuck emotionally in the toddler zone. Her childhood probably was traumatic and set her up for this. Her “personas” are learned behaviours that enabled survival for her, but it’s now far too late for counselling to be effective and she is probably never going to have the insight to recognize (or accept) the affect her behaviour has on other people. In her mind she behaves the way she does because other people “make” her do it.

I can understand the dread you feel when the phone rings. You must feel both resentment that you can’t have a “normal” mother/daughter relationship and guilt because you are unable or unwilling to rescue her like you have been raised to. I grew up with a similar mother and I didn’t want her screaming/crying manipulative bs to affect my kids. Luckily for them we lived on the other side of the planet until just before she died. VVLC or NC is the safest thing for you I suspect.

TicketMasterMind · 12/01/2023 19:57

she's a child- she's latched onto various unsuitable partners throughout my adult life and she's badgered kind, older people (even one who was dying) and got by by having meltdowns and eliciting (guilt-ridden) help.

She isn’t a child. She is just behaving like one as a full sized adult to exploit others. Know that.

she's not malicious per se, just utterly helpless and will throw herself at people with no shame!! of course it's incredibly manipulative though not actually a conscious plan if you see what i mean. she has no concept of how she impacts others

Yes she is. Yes she does. It’s finely tuned around boundaries. She knows specifically how hard to push and which buttons to press to get the attention she craves.

she's tried numerous times to get admitted to psych ward- succeeded once- she's also feigned a suicide attempt- had to admit to docs that she hadnt really taken lots of tablets! used to say she'd commit suicide if not for me and my brother- we were in our 20s- it's all so draining and manipulative (albiet unwittingly)

It’s not unwittingly. The NHS have the measure of her at least. Her behaviour is cruel and emotionally violent to you all.

she wants people to look after her- she has never been able to function properly in the world

She seems to have been successful in this goal. Of course she can function in the world unless she has a physical or learning difficulty? Sounds to me that her mental capacity is razor sharp.

sometimes absolutely vile- she's screamed at me, yelled while my kids were there-

Never let this happen again to your DC. They should not be exposed to emotional violence which is DV and classed as emotional abuse by NSPCC. This will have a profound impact on them - so see their own mother being abused.

obviously i did not enjoy seeing her as it made me incredibly depressed.

Don’t do this to your MH. We all have finite energy and emotional resources which deplete as we age. Conserve yours for your teenagers. Do not squander it on her - even being preoccupied with her is her taking space in your life.

she recovers spontaneously from these episodes while the recipient is a mess!!

Yes you are her emotional toilet bowl into which she shits out her anger and then pops off very relieved having discharged on to you. It’s actually enabling to facilitate her nonsense.

about 5 years ago she came up to "help" as i was very down- i tend not to show things too much

Your recurrent MH issues are solely due to her deficient parenting as a child and the ongoing toll she takes on you.

but i dont really have a good reason to end it this time!

Yes you do. You’ve done too much for too long. You need to focus on your own MH so that you can be the best parent to your own teenagers.

i know i cannot change her and i know she has no comprehension of the effects of her behaviour

Yes and No.

she's very dismissive of having any impact which can be crushing.
the other side of the coin is that she knows she has to behave better in order to have a relationship, so she does try- but, of course every so often she can't sustain it.

You need to get yourself out of her emotional energy orbit where she pushes and pulls and runs you ragged to achieve zero.

Emotionally detach. Get some therapy for the guilt you feel and the recurrent MH issues she has caused you.

You deserve to recover from this.

ThisSortOfThing · 12/01/2023 20:34

@Fraaahnces thank you for the lovely post- you obviously understand which really helps. well done for moving to the other side of the world!! that is something i've often wished i'd done just to get away. yep, i often see my neighbour's mum visiting- neighbour (my age) has mental health issues and her 70 something mum is awesome. i'm so envious- i do grieve for myself as a twenty something- myself immature and trying to find my way in the world, with this mother of mine making me feel so crappy. but it does help so much that others understand.

OP posts:
ThisSortOfThing · 12/01/2023 21:07

@TicketMasterMind I want you to know that i keep re-reading your post- you have nailed it. It's made me cry but in a good way- you're right about everything- the finite emotional resources that lessen (god, yes, they do), the fact that i am wasting my energy and happiness, this discharging of her crap onto me. it's what children/teens do- and they're allowed to- part of a parent's job is to be that sounding board so your kid can recover. but my mother does that to me- that's fucking shit and i'm angry now! which is a whole lot better than feeling guilty. and there are a hundred little ways she needles with the guilt- i'm never going to be able to keep her happy (and i dont really care to!) much less myself while she's in my life- i see that. you mentioned therapy and that's what I'm going to do- it's something I've been thinking about recently and I'm definitely up for it. I'll keep going back to your post- you've really helped.

OP posts:
ThisSortOfThing · 12/01/2023 21:10

and yes, my poor mental health is because of her- bloody right it is! that's actually quite a liberating thought

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 12/01/2023 21:15

It’s not your fault your mother is the ways she is and you did not make her that way.

Drop the rope she holds out to you. Let go of any and all hope she will change because this is who she is. Many people also do not have ideal childhoods either but do not treat their now adult child like she has and continues to treat you.

Both physical and mental distance is needed between you and she leading to no contact in short order. I would think you are one of very few, if not the only, person who bothers with her now because youve had the Special Training to put her first with your needs and wants dead list. It is not possible to have a relationship with someone this narcissistic and otherwise this disordered of thinking.

Seek therapy for yourself re your fear obligation and guilt via BACP. Would also suggest you look at the Out of the Fog website along with Dr Ramani on YouTube

Supersimkin2 · 12/01/2023 21:21

She’s dangerous. If it’s not her fault it certainly ain’t yours.

As for the guilt - is it in someone’s best interests to let them behave badly? It can’t be.

I’m so sorry for you. LC is the way to go. She’ll probably live to 95 so you’ll have to keep it up for too long - start practicing.

Dontlistitonfacebook · 12/01/2023 21:39

You have had good advice here OP so I will just add something that I read on here some time ago - "feeling guilty is not an emergency".

İn this context, it doesn't mean that you have done anything wrong. İt is just a feeling, that's all. İt is unpleasant but it can't harm you.

As my counsellor said to me once: Sometimes you just have to sit with the guilt.

ThisSortOfThing · 12/01/2023 21:40

thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat I will check out all your leads :) yes, me and brother i suppose are the long standing people in her life. she tends to get very close to neighbours and then moves and that's it! she has moved a lot- as a child i went to a few different schools- many different houses. she complains about the distance i live but was quite happy to uproot the family to the other side of the country during my gcses. no good reason- just greener grass. anyway- i digress! thanks.

OP posts:
ThisSortOfThing · 12/01/2023 21:49

@Supersimkin2 yes, dangerous is the word. and, of course, physically she's in rude health- she'll live to 110, i reckon!! she's never ill and she could sleep on a washing line- meanwhile i've had dreadful insomnia throughout my adult life!

@Dontlistitonfacebook thank you- I like that regarding guilt- I will aim to view it dispassionately :)

OP posts:
Greenfairydust · 12/01/2023 21:51

I had a really childish, immature and unbalanced mother who was manipulative, self-centered, lied, went into hysterics if anything did not go her way and played the victim to gain sympathy while in fact being abusive and neglectful (which she has never acknowledged) behind close doors.

Her behaviour affected me really badly while growing up. I distanced myself from her as soon as I could as an adult and saw her maybe once a year if that and ended up going no contact.

ThisSortOfThing · 12/01/2023 22:15

well done @Greenfairydust for going NC- you must have just reached a point where it was untenable. I was at that point 5 yrs ago and went NC but not now bah- let her back in would not recommend. it's weird it's as though it never happened- mum will talk about a friend of hers hiring a cottage with her children and grandchildren and i steel myself cos I know where this going- and sure enough mum'll say why dont we do that and i think do you not remember being an absolute arsehole to me and in front of the kids- i cant spend 5 minutes with you let alone a week! i honestly couldnt live with myself if i'd done what she'd done. anyway- yeah- keep up that NC!
one thing i will say, and this is where guilt comes in, is that unlike perhaps your mother, my mum was loving when we were young kids- hugs and kisses- home-cooked meals and she could be delightful- singing around the house that sort of thing. i'm so sorry that your mum was neglectful. it just makes me more confused as she wasnt bad when we were younger children- maybe below 8 or 9. but she did get progressively worse as we got older. i think she just cant relate to older kids/adults ugh it's all such a mess isnt it? mothers and daughters- hope i keep my own daughter on side.

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