Immature, needy mother

[ThisSortOfThing]

Hi,
I'm 51 and my mother is 77
I'm quite drained at the moment by our latest encounter
I just need vent and hopefully someone to hear me!
I'm very low contact with mum- and nearly 200 miles away- but I just can't bear this relationship
she's a child- she's latched onto various unsuitable partners throughout my adult life and she's badgered kind, older people (even one who was dying) and got by by having meltdowns and eliciting (guilt-ridden) help. she's not malicious per se, just utterly helpless and will throw herself at people with no shame!! of course it's incredibly manipulative though not actually a conscious plan if you see what i mean. she has no concept of how she impacts others
she's tried numerous times to get admitted to psych ward- succeeded once- she's also feigned a suicide attempt- had to admit to docs that she hadnt really taken lots of tablets!
used to say she'd commit suicide if not for me and my brother- we were in our 20s- it's all so draining and manipulative (albiet unwittingly)
she wants people to look after her- she has never been able to function properly in the world
she does have a low opinion of herself- she's definitely not a narcissist, but this makes me feel so shit for her- so sorry for her but at the same time i feel so depressed around her, so on tenterhooks that i'm making myself very unhappy
years ago she stayed for 3 months with my brother's in-laws (he was mortified)- brother's MIL severely disabled- wheelchair but mum never bothered to go visit her once she'd left- she just takes and is utterly self-absorbed
she can be kind especially to animals but i guess she has the sort of selfishness you'd expect from a child
It's her MO- and it does work- you just can't expect the same people to hang around!
she was adopted as a baby and i'm damn certain she has borderline personality disorder, no doubt as a result of this (her childhood was not happy- her sibling was a natural daughter and quite probably treated differently)- so i do understand why but i can't bear her
she's either really needy- i MUST see the grandchildren (they are teens), occasionally very jolly (and i always get bloody lulled) and sometimes absolutely vile- she's screamed at me, yelled while my kids were there- just the number of meltdowns in my life- no boundaries- she would phone me in my 20s to say how dreadful her life was; she would have hysterics the minute i visited- from 220 miles away- obviously i did not enjoy seeing her as it made me incredibly depressed.
she recovers spontaneously from these episodes while the recipient is a mess!!
about 5 years ago she came up to "help" as i was very down- i tend not to show things too much and it became clear that she was not in a good place. she was horrible to me- so not actually much help at all!-culminating in a meltdown- she called my fucking in-laws who i'm not close to! it was awful- i was so numb and kept my cool but at the same time had a moment of great clarity and went no contact, it was bliss for 3 to 4 years and then i let her back in and it's just shit again but i dont really have a good reason to end it this time!
she's nowhere near as bad as she was- she knows not to be- but it's still her underneath
she has actually been married the last 10 years- he's quite similar- long-term psych problems and has his poor daughter pandering to him- they're a right fucking pair!!
i know i cannot change her and i know she has no comprehension of the effects of her behaviour- despite exhausting attempts in my 20s and 30s to explain. she's very dismissive of having any impact which can be crushing.
the other side of the coin is that she knows she has to behave better in order to have a relationship, so she does try- but, of course every so often she can't sustain it.
i've been steadily reducing my antidepressant- i explained this to her and that i was feeling crap and it was a necessary evil and would take some time. she started calling me, saying she wanted to come up, must see the grandchildren and i could tell she was having a down and was completley consumed by herself again- how i was feeling was forgotten and i hate that her happiness depends on my family.
whnever she's coming up i dread it for weeks- i always put on a front but it's taking a huge toll- she stays with my brother- i cant have her here- no bloody way
if i could erase myself from her memory- i would!! life was so much easier without her in it
it's just the shit dance we do!
i feel guilty- she expects a wonderful mum/daughter relationship but doesnt realise i cant manufacture it - she is massively entitled- around money as well as people- quite frankly disgusts me
but sometimes i feel so sorry for her- and thats how i left her- it was a family event- i could tell she was feeling bad but i cant go there- i have to look after myself. i had totally steeled myself over weeks for that event- i waste so much of my life doing that- i know i need to work on myself
i know NC is prob the best but i cannot do the guilt- i wish i'd never got back in contact after she was horrible to me! she knows to be careful- but she still does and says things that completely trigger me.
if this were any other relationship it would have ended 30 years ago!
sorry really long- it's the first time i've written it down and i might repost to stately homes but thought i'd try here first
i dont think im after advice as such as i know what the problem is, i know she'll never change etc
i just dont want to feel so miserable and so bloody guilty- i felt like i was kicking a kitten this weekend by not being the daughter she wants and chatting to her more but i'm terrified of giving an inch as she will take more
lastly, although i dont think i can say i like her, i guess i do love her which is why i feel so yucky when i think of her all miserable ugh!! it's shit!

Urgh. You’ve exactly described my own mother, and my relationship with her. I’m just waiting for her to die so that I can be free of her.
My own coping mechanisms - which are only partially successful - are reducing contact to a phone call once a month and visiting her once a year for no more than two days, and only when another family member is there.
I feel guilty all the time, but even if I saw her every day it wouldn’t be right or enough to stop her manipulation and drama.
I’m sorry I don’t have any solutions, but I totally understand and you have my sympathies.

thank you @Helenahandkart love the username. god it really helps to know that someone gets it- don't worry about not having solutions- of course we know the only solution is NC either by design or, well, waiting until they pop their clogs. I'm so sorry you have a very similar mother- I can't believe someone does- I honestly thought mine was unique! absolutely i only see my mother with another family member- not sure she's realised this yet. I do think it's better to see them on their own turf- my mum is definitely worse away from home. but her parting words to me after the last family event were "I'll come up in a few weeks when the weather's better"- this sent me into tailspin as my brother said they'd agreed visits would be one way from now on- us to her. she asked if she'd be staying at mine and i did say no- felt awful but no that's not happening. thing is she knows that my father occasionally stays at mine but i havent had her back here since her meltdown- i know it must be hurtful to her to know this but it is her fault. but it's crazy as i'll now brace myself for next visit and no, this can't go on. I wish you the very best in your situation. do you have siblings?

@ThisSortOfThing I thought I’d pop back in and say that grieving for the mother you never had is absolutely logical. I flew back to nurse mine when she was dying (let’s just say that she did the opposite of mellow) - There were no Disney or Hallmark Channel moments of connection or closure… I thought I would be relieved or even happy when she finally died. (I was of course pleased for her that she was no longer suffering.) I had a breakdown, I think. I was grief-stricken because I looked at how much I loved my own kids and how easy it was to do so, and went through that whole process of wondering how she couldn’t possibly bring herself to put me first (while understanding all along that she didn’t have it in her and knowing why)…. I think I had to re-live a lot of my own trauma and put myself very quickly back into therapy for a while so that I didn’t affect my kids too deeply. Of course I knew that I had found other wonderful mother figures, wonderful friends and have a loving, stable husband, but it’s not the same. There is something so visceral that you know instinctively when you have your own kids that feels insulting when it is missing from your own mum, even when you know that ultimately it’s not her fault.
I guess you need to protect yourself and your kids. To do that you have to really learn to understand her AND yourself. Maybe look past her childhood to her parent’s (if that’s at all possible.) There is always a “pathology” of patterns set in the past and it is our responsibility to break the patterns to survive them and never, ever cause that kind of trauma for our kids. ( or inflict secondary trauma which can be just as bad.)
Biiiig Hugs!!!!

'i felt like i was kicking a kitten this weekend by not being the daughter she wants' this sentence speaks volumes to me. I can relate so much to this. The reason we feel like this, as so many have said, is because our mothers are not emotionally mature and they never were. We must heal ourselves from this, this is our responsibility, but these women are no longer our responsibility. It is so, so so hard, but I am learning I will never be what my mum wants, I never can be, so I have to offer what I can and then back off when I need to. Take care OP.

What's your brother's take on this?
I ask because it seems, often, women tie themselves up in knots (e.g. reread your own posts here, but it's not just you!) whereas men will be a lot more pragmatic
"We see Mum twice a year for a meal out because anything else will end in tears" and accept when people are just a mess and work round that.

@Fraaahnces thanks again for your insight- it really does help. I think the fact that mum is getting older is filling me with dread- it's not going to get any easier is it. I think it's amazing that you managed to nurse your mother- you deserve some serious karma for that! I joke with my brother that I'll look after Dad and he can have mum- i mean i just can't bear the thought! whenever we have a shit interaction i worry that if she dies that will be the last thing i did/said. i have read that people do still grieve every bit as hard even when they had a difficult relationship with a parent- so i can understand your response. And, yes, when you have your own kids it throws into sharp relief just how dreadful your mum's behaviour is/was. a friend of mine witnessed my mum's hysterics when she came to visit- i was about 24. naturally i was mortified and he was stunned!! he talks about it to this day- not unkindly- and it was perhaps the first time i really knew that this was shit behaviour. god it was awful- i had to take her to an out of hours doc to get valium. she got me to ring her sister in belgium and, i'll never forget, my aunt (her sister) asked if i was ok- of course i minimised but actually that stayed with me- someone acknowledging that this had an impact on me. i'm also glad my friend witnessed as people are very quick to say- come on, it's your mum- be kind, without understanding what it's like. a few years ago i actually told my mum about how my aunt asking how i was really struck me and i thought mum would have an epiphany and of course, she didnt- just does not compute that her behaviour impacts on me.
re children- i try to be philosophical and think- well, i have a great understanding of what not to do! but of course its hard because if my mum impacts me then it has repercussions on the family however much you try to protect them. and i never slag her off to them either- she's bloody lucky i don't- it's for their sake not hers as she was always running family down and i remember how shitty that made me feel.
phew! that was cathartic- biiig hugs back to you too.

@ThisSortOfThing I live in Aus and I know that it’s expensive and hard to find here, but EMDR therapy was bloody amazing for me. Otherwise, consider that there is virtually no way you don’t have C-PTSD from growing up with a mother like yours. If you can find a therapist who specializes in this, it will help you. In the time being, there is a fabulous (although American therapist called The Crappy Childhood Fairy) on YouTube who has great bite-sized little insights. Might be useful. Just understand that while there are a lot of “A-ha moments, not every single thing will apply to you.)

@coffeeisthebest thank you. it helps me enormously to know that i'm not alone- i'm also very sorry that you have experience of a mother like this, but i appreciate your sharing. it's something i find particularly difficult- that she's so fearful/sensitive/vulnerable- I almost want to provoke her into slapping me so I can have a good reason to call it a day or at least be pretty unavailable! i know I do morally- but optically- it would be so much easier if she were less pathetic (in the true sense of the word). once I feel a bit stronger i really am going to address boundaries properly cos this is not sustainable. it's so hard not to feel guilty but i did, as a previous poster suggested, "sit" with the guilt at 4.30 this morning and it helped. also writing on here is really helping me to reduce the feelings of guilt. i think it's probably as beneficial as going NC- find a bunch of women who understand- that's very powerful. take care of yourself too.

@Fenella123 you're absolutely right regarding men- my brother is able to compartmentalise everyting- my dad even more- he's on his own planet! incredibly laid- back and a tad eccentric! my brother does find my mum difficult but as you say is pragmatic. in all honesty he's not terrible emotionally mature either and i think that's helped him. i'm not being unkind, i'm just a little shocked by his naivety sometimes. but he's a lovely guy and i can talk to him/sound off so i'm lucky there. I do wonder how a sister would view things- I'm definitely seen as the emotional one and that pisses me off a bit!! i do feel a bit like the only real grown-up in my family and it's a bit lonely. but not to diminish- he is a lovely guy- i just envy his ease through life!

thank you for this @Fraaahnces I will definitely watch this. i started looking up therapists today and of course it's baffling so if I think EMDR seems the way to go that really narrows it down- I've heard positive things about it. I will watch the video tomorrow so I can properly take it in- after my fitful night's sleep. I watched one today- a therapist that attila recommended on this thread and definitely aha moments- it was about borderline personality. this is great getting materials to watch and other leads- thank you.

of course i may not have a fitful night's sleep! that was a bit negative

something i am a bit confused about is that I didn't have a horrible childhood- I'm not complaining about this, of course! and I'm not trying to see it through rose-coloured specs, but my mum was good for many years- i was certainly very happy at primary school. maybe around my early teens she cried a fair bit but even then it wasn't too much of a drag- she'd cry- we'd all roll our eyes and then it was done. I remember once or twice around that time her crying on friends' mothers and that did leave me embarrassed but it really was just the once or twice. also i remember her going on antidepressants when i was about 14 or 15 and the doctor giving me the responsibility of giving her her tablets so that "she doesnt commit suicide"- of course i was way to immature and didnt actually take charge- how fucked up were doctors in the 80s!! and of course my mum will have gone along with that, so not parent of the year- but really it wasn't a grinding every day misery in our household (despite her crying almost daily- i think i must have sensed that it was a bit of a superficial cry maybe). we had holidays, walked the dogs, watched the muppet show as a family, laughed sometimes- genuinely some good times. i have to say i suspect both parents had affairs too- certainly dad- and they did separate for a bit- maybe 6 or so months- ostensibly it was for him to find work i think but i dunno my spidey senses went into overdrive when i met his female bedsit neighbour and my brother has since confirmed that "something happened". this was all when i was about 14 but somehow it didnt register too badly with us kids.
when I was a mid to late teen mum had no clue how to parent me (and to be fair, my father, who was back in the house/marriage was a very hands-off parent!) and of course this seemed great to me as I would go out, smoke, drink, take drugs, have (shit!!) sex, go to raves without having to explain. obviously with hindsight I wish i'd been parented by an adult at this point who put in boundaries etc but, my point is that bar some crying/some misery (of my mother, not me) my childhood was fine. I was a happy kid and a fairly typical self-absorbed adolescent- not unhappy but very immature and i guess lacking in self-esteem (hence promiscuity).
and we moved a fair amount cos of mum's unhappiness- i went to 3 different high schools and left at 16 so less than 2 years at each.
so this, i think, is why i grieve for my 20 something self- because that was when her behaviour became so much worse and at that point I was out in the world without the tools to sort myself out, let alone my mother.
the reason she was so much better (relatively!) before my 20s was because she was with my father- she was ok financially- they weren't super-happy but it wasn't dreadful and for my mum the main concern is not to be abandoned- who the partner is is secondary to that!
when they divorced she spiralled massively- she did have a house and my dad gave her extra money (extraneous to divorce settlement) each month, but over the years, the money ran out, including a disastrous move to the continent- which lasted a month and drained tens of thousands!!
long-winded way of saying that i feel it was my late teens onwards where things got really crap. i know this sounds harsh but i often think if she'd died when I was 15 or 16 i would have canonised her (as people do with the the departed) and believed it and probably had a much better life henceforth. please don't anyone think i'm being glib about mothers dying on their teenage daughters- this is very specifically relating to my mother. it would be awful under more normal circumstances.
i also believe i'd have been happier if my dad had stuck with my mum as she would have been looked after- but of course that's completely unfair to my father! though i do sometimes feel unfairly angry that he gets to leave a relationship he chose whereas i'm stuck with one i didn't.
i'm not sure what i'm saying at this point! it does help to write things down :)

just to add that i'm not wishing my mother dead! more a rambling observation that my life might have had more peace of mind but of course i cant really say that, it might have been worse.

Have you had any therapy OP? I can't remember if you said you had. It's common, I think, to look back nostalgically at childhood before we begin to let down our defenses and allow our historic anger out. It doesn't have to be public like Harry, it can be contained in a therapy room, but is often very necessary work. I can read a lot of self blame in what you just wrote and I wonder what you are excusing from your younger years. It might be a good idea to try and uncover some stuff, although it might be difficult terrain.

outofthefog.website/toolbox-introshe was adopted as a baby and i'm damn certain she has borderline personality disorder, no doubt as a result of this (her childhood was not happy- her sibling was a natural daughter and quite probably treated differently)
Reading your second paragraph description of her behaviour, BPD occurred to me too - The Waif variant.
Have you heard of/read Dr Christine Ann Lawson's book?
www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-Borderline-Mother-Unpredictable-Relationship/dp/0765702886

It is written Addressing the adult children of borderlines and the therapists who work with them & has been renowned for decades as a seminal work.
I have found immense comfort from the book's compassionate but no-bullshit approach, & hope you do too.

I know you feel guilty about wanting to withdraw again. But your first duty is to your own mental health. Those 4 years of NC - how much better did you feel in yourself, how different did life feel? Because you need to value YOUR LIFE over feelings of duty/FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) - outofthefog.website/toolbox-intro

It's ok to do what YOU need for a change. Because your mother is never going to acknowledge, let alone accept, her own culpability in the relationship problems she goes through life causing.

daughtersrising.info/2021/09/20/bpd-mother-7-effects-she-has-on-her-daughter/

This is an excellent resource

www.bridgestorecovery.com/blog/being-raised-by-a-mother-with-borderline-personality-disorder/amp/

As is this

thanks @coffeeisthebest I haven't had therapy but am definitely considering it asap! i've realised this is not going away and needs to be addressed

@KettrickenSmiled thank you for the lovely words- I will look into all that you've suggested- such a minefield of info out there that it helps enormously to have recommendations- glad the book has helped you :)

and thanks once again @TicketMasterMind tomorrow I'm going to settle onto the sofa with coffee and biscuits and look through all the resources