If you are a woman diagnosed with autism, or have experience, please give me your opinion

[Parrotid]

Background is that ASD and ADHD run rampant through my family. I have ADHD (inattentive) as do some of my kids. I have two maternal uncles with ASD traits, and then there is my mum. She is in her seventies and v sprightly, still working etc. My family are v religious and also quite showy, she likes to be SEEN to be good etc.

We have fallen out on a grand scale. The gist of it is that I feel she has betrayed me repeatedly. I’m divorced and despite my ex husband’s shit behaviour she refused to see no wrong in him at all. She stayed in touch with him and would facilitate contact between him and the children when it was meant to be carefully managed. She also accused me of deliberately making his home life difficult in an effort to make him leave and that if I had been a better and more attractive wife then perhaps he wouldn’t have been so difficult. All delightful stuff.

we haven’t spoken for months now and she seems to have no real understanding of WHY it mattered to me when she would take his side. She would call it “keeping the peace” (she would do stuff like give him a lift to the pub or babysit if he wanted to go out and I wasn’t around, despite it being HIS responsibility.) She believed she was helping us to stay married, rather than supporting me.

Anyway, it occurred to me that perhaps, just perhaps this is all a manifestation of a lack of Theory of Mind. That in her head there are rules, eg “We don’t have divorce in this family. The wife must be pretty and a great cook. Husbands can go out when they like.” And that she was just sticking to that instead of actually seeing what was happening before her eyes - I was falling to bits and he was horribly cruel and abusive.

So, could this be a manifestation of the autistic traits which are so strong in the family? Or am I clutching at straws?

I see where you're coming from and quite agree too but I think the mistake we generally make is putting empathy in one basket. What you've written is that difference between cognitive and affective empathy (and some also say there's emotional empathy as well).

My initial post was indeed trying to state something similar (while my second post was trying to state similar to the post you've quoted in clarification) because a pp mentioned OP's mother not having empathy means it's not autism, when it's not supposed to be seen that way since it's neither nor.

So someome saying autistic people have empathy is not any more correct than saying autistic people don't have empathy. It has to be qualified what sort of empathy one is talking about and even so, it doesn't affect everyone the same.

As the saying goes - if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism, so despite what some pp say, being autistic and knowing autistic people with empathy doesn't mean OP's mum must have empathy IF she is autistic, which I don't know if she is or not.

I also agree with this and said something in my first post about OP's mum's possible mindset.

A PP mentioned her mum is more likely to stick with her if she was autistic but I think if her mum is autistic, it would be more likely that she'd stick to what she (her mum) believes is fair and true (even if everyone else knows she's wrong) regardless of whose side it's on, than to side with her daughter blindly if she feels her daughter is wrong.

Rigid and black and White thinking of a lot of autistic people doesn't mean the autistic person must be right in that particular thought for it to be valid; some could simply be wrong but unable to see that or move from that even if they do see it.

I don't think people have to see eye to eye simply because they're both autistic or family.

Thankyou all so so much for your replies.

Two of my sons are fully diagnosed with autism, one comorbid with adhd. Both struggle a bit with the social parts of “theory of mind” and may do things that other people might not, because it hasn’t occurred to them how the other person might interpret that. However what I notice though is that as soon as that’s pointed out, they actively either adjust their behaviour or consider the other point of view. And would be mortified to upset or hurt anyone. They also absolutely have empathy for others.

My eldest was watching a program about adoption and fostering and was horrified to think that some little children didn’t have a mum to tuck them in. He was quite tearful and said to me “Mum, you’re quite nice, could we get one, and you could tuck it in!”

But back to my my mother.

The posters who have pointed out that I’m trying to find explanations for my mother’s behaviour, are right. And I deliberately didn’t suggest narcissism although it seems incredibly likely that’s the case. I’m under pressure from one of my children (her golden grandchild) to let her see them and I want to be very very solid in my decision to cut contact so that’s why I’m exploring every angle.

Autism and other neurodivergence is so strong in the family that I can’t discount it, but as has been rightly pointed out, that doesn’t mean that she can’t be an utter bitch to me, regardless. And for the record I don’t associate negative traits with autism, my children to me are perfect. There are aspects of their lives that I’d make easier if I could - but same for me, my ADHD makes me who I am. It’s my superpower, mostly, and occasionally a hurdle.

So I’ll stand firm.

Again thanks so much for discussing this in this way. Massively appreciated.

This is so so so so similar to my experience. Thankyou so much for posting.

@AttilaTheMeerkat “However, while cognitive empathy can be lower in people with autism, affective empathy—which is based on instincts and involuntary responses to the emotions of others—can be strong and overwhelming. In fact, newer research suggests that some people with autism may actually feel other people's emotions more intensely.”

that’s absolutely my experience with my ASD sons. They’re like little barometers sometimes of the energy around them.

Who in your family actually has autism? It sounds more likely your adhd is a trauma response to shit parenting, if anything. Anyway, no, your mum's behaviour doesn't sound like autism to me.

That wasn’t what I was doing, sorry to offend, I hope I’ve explained adequately.

Properly diagnosed; two of my sons and one brother.

Highly likely; my mother’s two brothers. One never left home, highly ritualised behaviour, sensorily highly affected, exholalia, talented watchmaker.

Other uncle is very successful academic, ahead of his time in electrical engineering, mostly self taught but managed a pHd and personally I believe also managed “life” because he moved straight from rigidity of the Navy to the arms of a devoted wife who did everything. All four of his children (my first cousins) are neurodivergent, three with ASD and one other who won’t be assessed because he said he didn’t need to be. He’s a computer programmer.

My other child has profound dyslexia and hyperactive ADHD.

”The Force is Strong!”

Interesting thread.

I think it could relate to autism- specifically undiagnosed autism. I was late dx in my late 30s and looking back i did all sorts of quite mad things cause of rules in my head.

Being dx and doing A LOT of work around that and having an excruciating look back over my life, behaviour and reasoning has made me find a place of better balance and more understanding of other people and valuing their experiences as valid.

i reckon someone older who has just always operated that way could be autistic.

Have you considered psychoanalysing yourself, rather than your mum? It might help you more. Your life is about you, after all, not her, or anybody else, and especially not about those who treat you poorly and in ways you can't understand.

Whether your mum has autism or not, she's treating you poorly and you're looking to excuse her. Have a look into why you do that. Is it an anxious attachment style thing?

psychcentral.com/health/anxious-attachment-style-signs#:~:text=Someone%20with%20an%20anxious%20attachment,overly%20attentive%20to%20their%20partner.

Is it something that you've always done, to look for excuses for her? When has it worked for you in the past? What alternative ways might there be of dealing with this?

Has it been totally debunked?

Yes. In peer reviewed research.

because a pp mentioned OP's mother not having empathy means it's not autism

If you're referring to me you have completely misunderstood my posts. I most certainly did not say the OP's mother can't be autistic because she lacks empathy. 🙄 What I said was that the streotype that a lack of empathy is more common in autistic people has been shown to be false.

Like in any group of people, some autistic people lack empathy. Some non-autistic people lack empathy. Research demonstrates that being autistic does not make a lack of empathy more likely. In fact, in terms of what is commonly understood as empathy (i.e. feeling the pain of others) autistic people showed more of this on average than those who are not autistic.

Please do not falsely paraphrase other posters.

OP I agree with all the other posters who've said the autism or not here is not really relevant. Your mother is behaving in an unpleasant way to you even though you've made it clear this upsets you. It sounds like narcissism rather than autism driving her behaviour based on the information in this post alone, but whatever the reasons for her behaviour you should not have to tolerate it so you need to be clearer on boundaries with her and if she still refuses to accept your boundaries then you have a decision to make as to how much contact you want to have with someone who will continually behave in a way that hurts you.

I love your posts. I wish you’d post more!

Im having weekly CBT (thankfully paid for by my insurance) to explore anxiety and my fear of abandonment in some but not all relationships and we are getting to the bottom of it - my low self esteem - beliefs around how I’m intrinsically bad and anything that is good or positive about me is what I’ve worked for and gained and learned and isn’t “me” at the core. Heavy stuff. And unpicking and reframing that. I’m on about week 11 I think of 24 sessions and it’s changed how I think about some things so long as I have the headspace to catch myself and said “Oy, is that REALLY what’s happening?” It has given me some space instead of descending into panic.

And a lot of this is pinned in my mother’s behaviour towards me where nothing is ever quite right unless she has said so. She also (and it brings me back to the theory of mind thing) seemed to have little regard for the consequences of her words to me - she would tell me we were all leaving my father, and then their row would blow over and they’d make up and I’d be left spinning with confusion. And so what I was asking was WHY she did this sort of thing - was it because she’s a narcissist, or was it because she didn’t get how that might upset me (how? How?) or both.

Yes that’s true. I suppose it’s the intention behind the actions that I’m trying to understand.

Sou could tie yourself in knots dor decades doing that, and still be none the wiser. If she won't explain her reasons you would only be guessing. I think it would be far healthier for you to accept the situation as it is, and focus your energy on what you can do to make it tolerable for you. You can't will her into being someone she isn't, sad as it is.

No I actually wasn't referring to you and my post wasn't meant as an accusation to the pp I was referring to either. I simply referenced what made me post what I did in the first place.

However I think you have a rather combative way of having a discussion (if indeed a discussion is what you're aiming for and not one-upmanship) with the eye rolls and accusation of spreading things and assuming things, when you seem to have assumed yourself.

This is a calm discussion and if we disagree that's fine, but I think we understand each other in general - if you can take the time to drop the typical condescending act we usually see on mumsnet and respond without the passive aggression, you'll see it too.

Glad to help.

Anxiety comes from a feeling that nobody has got your back, so you're never quite 100% safe. It's not to do with your relationships with others (although they will have an effect), it's to do with your relationship with you.

When we become adults, that essentially means that we don't need parents any more, because we're old enough to parent ourselves. When we do that, we parent ourselves in the way we've been shown to parent; usually the way our mums have parented us. We are still children inside, but we learn to manage/parent our emotional inner child in a way that's acceptable to the adult world, so for example, when you were a kid in the supermarket and you got pissed off, you'd scream and cry, and now, even though you get the same feeling when everybody is crossing your path, pushing you, you're running late and your shoe has let the rain in, you wait until you're in the car to let out a muffled grunt of frustration before eating a large bag of minstrels. (That's what I do, anyway)

So, it's time to learn a new way of parenting yourself. If your child has a bully in their life, do you encourage them to work out why the bully treats them that way, and to work out if they might have this diagnosis/that diagnosis/this issue/that issue? Or do you just do the supportive thing and say 'Darling, just stay away from them if they're making you feel bad; you'll never understand a bully because you're not one, and that's a good thing.' It's time to treat yourself in that way. Once you start to look after the parts of you inside that hurt in a more nurturing way, you'll start to notice a drop in your anxiety: you'll know you're going to be fine in any situation, because you are the one taking care of you, and you know how to do it.

Obviously, though, don't forget the minstrels, too.

Oh, it works with fear of abandonment too: if you don't abandon yourself (by becoming self critical and generally unhelpful/destructive/insulting towards yourself, or feeling that you're not understanding something you should), then you can never be abandoned, and you'll know that.

Be on your own side. Don't look for ways to justify people who aren't on your side.

I think she's a bitch, and there's no need to make excuses.

No.

I asked if you were referring to me. You weren't and that's fine. I'm sorry that I thought you might be, because it was me who had pointed out that the stereotype of autistic people lacking empathy is false.

As for the rest of your post, how unpleasant, and rather ironic.

seemed to have little regard for the consequences of her words to me - she would tell me we were all leaving my father, and then their row would blow over and they’d make up and I’d be left spinning with confusion.

This was my childhood experience, too. I call narc, and would advise minimising contact.

I also didn't see any poster say that "OP's mother not having empathy means it's not autism" as you say in your post that someone did, but quite possibly I missed that somehow when I read through. Can you remember who you think said this? I've had a flick through again and can't see anybody saying that.

But regardless, I don't think this is really helpful to the OP who clearly has a good understanding of autism already.

Be on your own side. Don't look for ways to justify people who aren't on your side.

This is really good advice.

I am saving this post. You are very wise.