I’m a covert narcissist

[Aussiegirl123456]

I was listening to that Taylor Swift song the other day and there was something in it about covert narcissists. I didn’t know what that meant so I googled it. And it’s me. What I read, described me to a tee.

Are there any strategies I can put in place to least impact those in my life who I love the most? I don’t want to be like this and I definitely don’t want to mess up the lives of my children. I’ve known for many years there’s something ‘wrong’ with me so I’ve always been conscious of this and have tried so hard not to give my children a childhood they need to recover from, like my own was. It’s exhausting and now I know why.

Any tips or strategies that may help would be so appreciated, or anybody else living with one or is one. thank you.

I have a family member who I’m certain is a covert narc
It’s not that she actively doesn’t want to be nice to other people, or say the right things or whatever else
its that other peoples feelings and perspectives literally don’t occur to her. There’s no space to wonder if she’s meeting their needs, or if she’s being selfish, or saying the right things to keep them happy, because all her thoughts and feelings are already all taken up.

when I learned about covert narcissism I did worry I was just the same though, I think it’s normal, we’re all a bit more selfish than what we want other people to think we are, imo.

Craig Malkin's book Rethinking Narcissism might be helpful and is based on actual scientific research Xx

To be up front I am a man.

This is a really interesting thread as I have, this year, come to think that I exhibit covert narcissistic behaviours. A horrible thing to discover in my 50s and worse when I have studied in and worked in mental health for many years. Some of your post OP really resonated with me. I have adult children from a first marriage that I ended by having an affair. I'm still married to my affair partner two decades later but it has really difficult components. A relate counsellor told us there was abuse on both sides. I kissed a friend about a decade ago when drunk - in the house I had bought together with my wife for fucks sake. I have had far more women than men friends, in part due to my job, but have realised I am drawn to be the "nice guy" rescuer who targets those I see as needing saving to feel better about myself. I may have helped some of them but I did it for me.

I have terrible low self esteem and a fear that if anyone knew everything I have ever thought and done they would know how truly repugnant I am. I have friends and colleague who tell me I'm lovely wise and kind. I want to scream at them that they are so so deluded. I feel sick when I get a compliment and in my head neutralise it by calling myself a useless cunt. But I still do the shit I do.

Then this year, thanks to Mumsnet and other reading I realised that my behaviours of being a 'nice guy' were just ways to use others for validation. Even though I can find the validation excruciating I also desperately crave it. I'm not remotely altruistic. I'm the person who buys for the food bank outside Sainsbury's to hear the volunteer thank me when I drop the cans in the trolley.

I realised that the world external to me doesn't feel entirely real and that I dissociate from it and my own emotions quite often, or use low level self harm to quell them. I cannot tell if I have empathy for those who suffer, I more think I want to be the rescuer of people, to do good for my sake. I find scenes of sexual violence towards women in fiction very hard to watch or read. Possibly due to finding the pornographic fiction my dad read (rape scenes, young teens etc) when I was young. But then I have rescuer/revenger thoughts. Narcissistic supply in my own fantasy world. Same when I hear a news story. I can to get to cognitive empathy for the victim or their family but I have no idea if I feel empathy.

I was raised as an only child and conceived as an affair baby. My dad was somewhat grandiosely narcissistic in behaviour and my mother was an alcoholic and I think horribly abused by her father. She found me hard to tolerate for being male. I was a crushing disappoint to both my parents, shy, not sporty. They liked me being 'top of the class' though. My dad basked in the glory, my mother I think, as a way of minimising the impact of her alcoholism on me. I retreated into fantasy novels, self harm and a very compartmentalised personality. I could be really cruel as a child and also sickened and disgusted when someone else was. My 'parts' I realised this year are very poorly integrated.

I really related to your points about your children. I used mine as my parents used me- to feel good about themselves. Not to the same extent and I have got better at that. I can now usually spot that thinking/imagining process (me at their great achievement award night) and shut that shit down. But sometimes I almost forget they exist. I live in a world of 'I'. That said I have in recent years been able to actually feel that I love them for who they are, not what they do. A move from the conditional to the unconditional.

I realise this is a very long post. Quite narcissistic in and of itself. I'm not sure if you are a narcissist OP. As my story shows I'm a lot more down that road than you seem to be and I'm not sure I'd get a 'diagnosis'.
I have scored myself on some of the validated measures and on the maladaptive covert narcissism scale I'm 64 - just above the 'normal' cutoff. But that's just a self report scale and I'm not sure if any DCM-V/ICD 11 label has much meaning in some ways. From my professional perspective, the concept of personality disorders come from a medical model of mental health and categorising of distress. A better view I believe is through a trauma informed lens. I've yet to meet a so called BPD/EUPD diagnosed person who didn't also have significant adverse experiences in early life. That view allows for change and growth through self awareness.

Same is true for narcissists. I appreciate some people aren't aware of the impact of their behaviours on others and may be unwilling or unable to either recognise this or drop the defence against pain and shame that narcissistic behaviours are. That makes them very damaging to others and not being around them is the right move. But OP it sounds like you are self aware and that's hugely important. I've spent well over half my life not being so and fucking up other people's lives because of it. Whilst one might have empathy for the little child who came to know his parents could not love him for himself, the adult has a choice about their behaviours. Getting pissed and kissing someone who saw me as a supportive friend was a choice I made instead of staying sober and trying to address issues in my marriage. I know now why I did it but that's not a free pass.

So where now OP?
Maybe some reading and therapy might help. Try to be kind to yourself if you can. You did nothing to deserve a childhood you needed to recover from. Be self compassionate but also be willing to work to try to change behaviours if you see them as hurting others. My mistakes in all my therapy to date have been talking about 'poor me' and 'bad me' and not trying to work on being a 'self and other aware new me'.

Very best wishes to you.

Cracking post @Notsuchaniceguy

& your opening line - To be up front I am a man. - is much appreciated.
Such a change from the all too frequent "MAN HERE, SO LISTEN UP LAYDEEZ!" stance adopted by many mansplainers round these parts.

I hope you find some genuine compassion for yourself for the ACE your parents put you through, & can use that to extend the obvious desire (& ability!) you have to feel compassion for others. You are not a label - & I'm not convinced your self-imposed label is entirely justified anyway. Like OP, I wonder how much C-PTSD you might have been managing over the decades?

How does your own upbringing compare to the way you are bringing up your own children? Any parallels between your behaviour and that of your parents?

Look into autism, particularly how it manifests in girls.

The way you describe your self awareness, sense of disconnect, social behaviour as performance, and the resultant exhaustion, are classic aspects of autistic girls appearing to function well.

That is really interesting - thanks@GazeboLantern

When I read your post OP the first thought I had was ASD. I can see I’m not the only one. Have you looked into this?

Reading your posts I would say it sounds more like cptsd.

Narcissists don't tend to look inwards. Even if they have a moment of recognition, it doesn't tend to last because of the shame they feel with it. And the mechanisms they've developed to avoid that shame kicking in.

I'd look into cptsd. Also could be codependency (needing the attention of others and getting it by running around after them). Also, autism. Or bpd. Hell, could even be psychopathy. Maybe see your gp, have a chat.

I also think counselling could assist you in working through this OP. It's interesting that you speak about doing nice things for others but they don't feel genuine. I wonder if you had considered this might be true for many of us? That we are not all virtuous saints when we do things for others people, most of us are far more complex and messy than that because we are human. Like you. I don't think you need a diagnosis, I think you would benefit from embracing your own humanity and the grey and murky areas that make up all of who you are. Good luck!

Some people believe that the traits of narcissism and traits of autism are very similar minus a few things, the main one being intention.

Do you intend to cause people distress?
I very much doubt it judging by your post. I think you may discover that the reason you feel different is possibly high functioning autism x

What a damn fine post. Seconded!

No it couldn't be psychopathy, not with that display of conscience! And a chat with her GP would not get her any further along - they don't casually diagnose such things!

Her gp won't diagnose it but they can point her I the right direction for whatever she needs. Be it counciling or cognitive behavioral therapy. Or they may even suggest a mild dose if antidepressants to help her. A disconnect between how we know we should feel and our actual feelings, can be due to depression.

Either way, gp is a good starting point.

Yes that makes more sense than hey, you might be a psychopath :)

I had the misfortune of coming up against a narc and I'm telling you now, it's not you! You have empathy and concern and want to take responsibility. Narcs don't do that. They are utterly poisonous and quite frankly don't give a flying fuck about anybody but themselves, even children. They will never accept they're wrong, will never take responsibility for the devastation they cause and don't care either. Everything is always somebody else's fault.

I would hazard a guess you have some trauma to start with. I can't comment on any other disorders but I'd seek some help. Don't label yourself in that way though. You need professional help. Good luck

I love that all these responses are bang on teatime. Everyone agrees!

God OP, you've described me, particularly in your post about trying extra hard with your kids. I worry too that I'm a narc and had a messed up childhood to say the least 😔

OP Narcissism and ASD can be quite similar in how they present - but it is the motivation that is completely different. The person with ASD is not doing things to be malicious, they may struggle to show empathy in the way others do (but often feel it, sometimes very deeply), they may be easily over whelmed by situations, they may appear self absorbed, they may be brutally honest, they may be anxious and have low self esteem.

The narcissist however come from a place of manipulation and self preservation. They have no remorse, they have no empathy, they are not capable of anything as deep as 'love'. Everything about them is shallow, they don't care about messing anyone up - but they will make sure they still somehow come out of it looking like the good one. People will like them and they can be quite popular for their fake niceness, they do things only to look good, they don't genuinely care about anyone - only about themselves. They will lie and gas light like you wouldn't believe to keep up the illusion of being 'good'. The use people and when they are not useful they discard them, they cheat and think nothing of it. They have a huge ego that tells them they are better than anyone else - but very fragile self esteem so cannot take any kind or criticism, because of their very low self esteem they need a constant supply of admiration and compliments and will constantly fish for them from anyone who will oblige.

Oh and their low self esteem will never, ever allow them to be to blame for anything. Do you still think you tick all those boxes??

Narcissists are proud of their narcissism, so that rules you out.

Emotional neglect in childhood can be traumatising. It sounds like you need to heal rather than be hard on yourself. You are striving to be there for others, that's not narcissistic behaviour.

The feeling of being detached from others is hallmark trauma. It's hard to feel safe enough to engage fully with others when you haven't felt safe in childhood. Try reading CPTSD - from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker. It's an easy to read explanation of how you feel. Also Adult Children Of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay Gibson.