Was I an arse? Was he an arse? Were we both?

[Pondere]

I’ll start by saying that I don’t have a close relationship with my SIL. She’s married to someone who doesn’t like me because of the colour of my skin (that’s true, he has said so, we have no relationship with him because of this) and I always struggled with how she never acknowledged how hurtful it was for me so we’re not close. We are perfectly normal when we see each other but otherwise, we don’t really talk in between.

They have one child. She really wanted a second but her husband didn’t and so they only have the one. DH and I are currently TTC for our second.

DH came to me earlier on holding some hand me downs she gave us for our first child and said it’s really sad that she kept all these items for a second child and never got to use them. It’s not like a couple who are trying for more children and it doesn’t happen for several reasons, she’s had it forced on her.

I raised my eyebrows and said hmm, I don’t think that’s worse than a couple who want more and can’t get pregnant or suffer loss after loss.

DH immediately looked taken aback and walked away. I asked what was wrong with what I said and he didn’t say anything. I asked him again and he refused to engage and then after I told him to tell me and he said I was insensitive.

I said that wasn’t fair, I just think the two situations are not really comparable and he kept saying he doesn’t want to talk about it. We ended up having a huge row as I said it’s not right that he calls me insensitive without giving me the chance to defend myself and he said he’s not going to talk about it.

I fully admit I should have dropped it when he said he doesn’t want to talk about it as that’s what escalated it, but I didn’t think it right to call me insensitive because I didn’t agree with his example. I even told him if he just said he feels sad because XYZ then that’s different, but to compare it to another situation that could be us, I just don’t necessarily agree with and that doesn’t make me insensitive. But I’m also conscious that my personal feelings towards his sister could have clouded my judgment

Your sil is married to a racist. Yanbu to give no fucks about her life...

Not what you asked but nothing would make me accept gifts or hand downs from a disgusting racist or racist sympathiser. I’d have nothing to do with either of them and neither would my child.

I feel the same. We’ve never actually used them…DH hasn’t realised that. I accepted them just to keep the peace…

And that’s why I wonder if I was insensitive when DH was telling me about what makes him sad.

Fuck keeping the peace. The peace was trashed by the two of them and I suspect some enabling/looking the other way by your husband. He expects you to tolerate this revolting attitude, which presumably extends to your child? But you’re not allowed an opinion on his “sadness”. Fuck. That. Shit.

I do think your dh is allowed to say he feels sorry for his Sister because she’s been forced into not having a second child, despite wanting one and I can understand why he was annoyed with you. I assume he’s not very happy with her being married to this man so maybe he’s worried about her.

However I can also understand why you reacted as you did because she clearly married to a racist and that is awful for you.

I'm failing to muster any sympathy for racists.

Op I am mixed race. I know what it’s like for extended family to treat you like shit because of the colour of your skin and I am sorry this is happening to you. I don’t think you should care about your sil.

But, your dh told him something made him feel sad. Your reaction was ‘I disagree’. It doesn’t really matter if you like sil or not as it’s not really about her.

You can think the situations aren’t comparable. He can think they are. If he also dislikes her husband, it’s likely to make your dhs feelings even more complex and confused. I can imagine your sibling being married to such a dick and seeing the impact on her and you and the wider family, produces complex emotions.

I just think you should take your sil out of it and look at what happened between you two. He told you he was feeling sad, you told him you disagree with his reasons for being sad. He called you insensitive and you said it wasn’t fair. Why is it fair of you to tell him you disagree with why he feels sad? But not ok for him to say you are insensitive?

I would say it’s both of you.

Your SIL has a horrible husband, your DH is sad about that - sad that the impact nasty husband as ok her life.

Would you be sad if your sibling was married to someone horrid?

Firstly I agree with the above that the fact her husband was racist towards you is beyond vile and I'm so sorry you had to deal with that.

In terms of the actual argument. Did he say that they were comparable? In your OP it just says he felt sad she'd kept them all for a second child she didn't get to have.. which is true. No it isn't that she couldn't conceive or had losses, but she's in a situation in her life where her dreams of a second child have had to be put away for the sake of her husband and current family unit.
That is her choice but couldn't have been an easy one for her. Making the decision to not have any more children when you have always wanted more is a sacrifice and one that no doubt hurts. (Not that I'd be full of sympathy for her after what's transpired between you all!). Of course if he did liken it to losses etc then I'd have disagreed immediately too!
He told you he felt sad and I imagine it might be more than just the fact she won't have another child as she wished, but probably also that she's married to that piece of crap and sacrificing her wish to have another child. One she clearly thought about when saving all those clothes etc.
Perhaps disagreeing with him at that point and essentially dismissing his negative feelings on the matter may have felt crap for him.
I'm not sure you were being insensitive though - what did he want you to say? That your heart breaks for her? After what she did I imagine your heart is totally absent in the matter. As hers was when her husband was being a racist!

So no, I don't think you were being insensitive towards her. Perhaps a tiny bit towards his feelings about his sister but understandable if he's likening it to a situation with which you don't agree.

Escalating the situation - yeah, it's never great. When they wanna leave it and you don't (or vice versa) it's always a build up to trouble. But we've all been there because it feels a whole lot like being shut down and shut out when we try and have our voice heard.

I may have misunderstood what actually went down but if not I'd say maybe both of you, maybe just one of those things where some miscommunication and misunderstanding ramped things up unintentionally until you're both pissed and feeling a bit sore.

I suspect that your husband is somewhat saddened that his sister is married to a racist who has refused to have a second child.

I suspect he wants his sister to be happy in life. Even if it is of her own making, he can still be disappointed for her.

Okay, apologies, I've just reread and I think I first saw it as he said he was sad and YOU thought "it's not like a couple who can't have children for ...". So yeah he did compare them.

I don't think the situations are comparable as such but I do think the outcome is the same for both.

The outcome being that she desperately wanted a second and isn't going to have that.

The differences obviously being the emotional roller coaster of TTC and not being successful but also on the other side of things, she's not going to be getting any emotional support. She isn't going through this with her partner. She's going through it because of him and his choice.

So I guess my thoughts remain.
He said he felt sad that his sister had this forced on her. That she'd never gotten to use the clothes she saved.
You perhaps didn't quite respond how he'd hoped - you went defensive of the way he described his sadness.

Were you insensitive? No. Equally perhaps not the most supportive for him in that moment of sadness regarding his sister. But he also shut you down to having that conversation which also isn't fair.

I think it sounds like one of those times where you both end up upsetting the other one without actually really knowing it at the time and it all blew up a bit.

Hope it's all sorted soon OP. It's crap having these rows. Especially when it's born out of seemingly nowhere.

I'm mixed-race so I have total sympathy for you in what you've faced from your in-laws.

I think the issue you need to confront is the overall relationship you and your DH have with them. Reading between the lines it seems that you no longer talk to your SIL's husband; you're cordial but not close with your SIL; and your DH has carried on as normal with his sister (and her husband?).

The last element of that is the problem. I would expect DP to have my back if any of his family were racist towards me, not to sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn't happen. It's not just about the singular actively racist person but about everyone around them who enables them. Your SIL is complicit in racism and if your husband still interacts with them as before, so is he.

The actual thing you argued about is so small and meaningless, and you both escalated it wildly. But there's a whole backdrop to it that needs to be addressed. Your husband needs to do the addressing. You deserve to have a family life free of racism and racists.

There is a lot of food for thought here, thank you.

DH doesn’t speak to his BIL. We have no relationship with him at all, that was not an option for DH as soon as his BIL’s views came out so for that I was grateful. And when his parents tried to persuade him to reach out or invite him to our wedding, DH refused to even entertain the idea.

But he is still close to his sister as they have always been close, and I know he felt very caught in the middle when we were dealing with it. But it does hurt, it hurts so much. And what I really struggle with is everyone sees the sister as the victim because she has a difficult husband and I’m just like “hello…?”. It is very much swept under the carpet and the focus has always been her because she must have it tough. I’ve tried to make peace with that on the basis that I’m ultimately the outsider in the family.

And so when DH was telling me about his thoughts, I didn’t really feel sympathy, but it was when he compared it to people who can’t have further children or deal with loss that I disagreed with him. But a few posters, especially @Olivia199 have made me see that I should have been supportive of my husband’s sadness, which doesn’t necessarily mean I have to empathise with his sister. I still think it wasn’t comparable to compare her pain to the pain of people who have suffered loss, and I think that makes me worried because we are TTC and I’m worried it won’t be easy. But he was having a moment and I wasn’t as sympathetic for him as I should have been.

I agree OP, your SIL is choosing to stay with her H. Her choice. Not comparable to losses/infertility which are not a choice. I do get that it’s more complicated than that for your SIL but honestly, I’m autistic and pretty black and white in thinking. IMO thinking she could have left the racist bastard before having kids and had lots with someone lovely or she could leave now and potentially have more elsewhere (age etc allowing). She’s choosing to stay with a vile racist and have no more kids. Her choice.

I'm sorry you’ve been badly treated by family 💐💐💐

Tell her you don't feel right about accepting their kindness because of the sadness related to it and ask if she'd be offended if you give it to a charity. Don't ever pretend you're not grateful just that you don't want need it and have no storage or something.

I would actively want my SIL to have deep unhappiness in her marriage in these circumstances and I would expect my husband not to try to persuade me otherwise.

I'm glad to hear your H hasn't tried to brush off the BIL situation because it's a big thing and absolutely not okay.
I can absolutely understand why it hurts though.
It's not fair to focus on "poor her" because as you said, it's her choice. Yes I agree that it wouldn't have been an easy choice, it may not be as straightforward as LTB and be happy. But, it is still a choice and one she has had to make. Once she made that decision, it was hers to own.
Your H's feelings on the matter though - I guess I'd see them as separate? He's essentially watching his sister make a decision that will make her miserable and I imagine that's hard for anyone. We worry about people even when they're not worrying themselves.
I think you're absolutely right though. The way he said it and the things he compared it to - not okay. Especially when you yourself are TTC.

We all feel strongly about certain things and it's so hard to sweep all those big feelings yourself under the carpet to just blindly be supportive of your DH. More so when it's a situation so closely realted to the current emotional rollercoaster of TTC.

So for what it's worth I don't think you were an arse. I think perhaps he felt you were being so. And you felt he was. But I don't think either of you were actually being anything other than human!

Wishing you all the luck in the world with TTC and hope you have a happy healthy time.