Anger and elderly parent

[Writercat]

Hi sorry for long post. I'm not after absolution but just want hear if anyone else has had a similar experience. I
'm a grown-up woman who yesterday lost it with her 85yo father. And when I say lost it, I was screeching. My mother passed away 10 years ago and he's been in a bad way ever since, understandably. My parents didn't interact much with family but we've rallied around my father and tried to include him in our lives. He complains about everything, won’t go anywhere unless he absolutely has too, just sits in the chair and mostly sleeps. His legs are seizing up and now he uses two walking sticks. He has a big garden that I’ve been digging and planting to help him out. He wanted chickens so we got him some and I’ve been doing the cleaning up and buying food and general welfare stuff (they are lovely animals). He lets them out and feeds them in the morning, and was talking about getting a few more.
Now he’s announced they have to go because there is ‘no one to look after them’ (shortened version) and he didn’t want them in the first place. No discussion, no warning and it seems that this was my last straw. There was something in the way he said it that reminded me of childhood. As kids we had no autonomy and no right to contest it – my parents did what they wanted to do. My brother has told him that I’m looking after the chooks and enjoying doing so but our father wanted them gone. Okay. Next day he messaged and said we need to buy a new chicken coop and he’ll pay for it (I must add that he can be generous and if anyone ever needed it he would help out). He denied all he’d said the day before and that’s when I exploded. My father isn’t senile, he knows what he’s saying and I’ve been gaslighted many times before. In my screaming fit I brought up when he’d physically hurt me in the past and he ‘pretended’ he didn’t know what he’d done.
This is the condensed version. I don’t feel good about any of it. I feel immature, and churned up inside. He’s 85, he’s on his own, and I’ve never shouted at him like that before. My parting shot was ‘you’re a sad old man without an ounce of joy in you’. He kept his door locked today and told my brother to stop taking him a morning paper.
Last time I confronted my father was twenty-odd years ago. I was gaslighted then but didn’t shout (just got upset because neither parent wouldn’t admit what had happened) and he didn’t speak to me for ten years. My own children have yelled at me but I didn’t cut them off. Families argue don’t they?
I’m not looking for sympathy here or for anything derision for my father. Think I just want to say this to someone. I feel shellshocked actually and annoyed at myself for not letting go of the past.
Today I messaged him to get his shopping list ready but he said not to bother about him. I understand that he doesn’t want to be a burden and I’ve previously told him he isn’t (because it’s no trouble doing things and it was nice having what I thought was a proper relationship with him). I don’t want him to feel hurt but I can’t apologise. (My kidself would like him to forgive me simply because I’m his child). I have no clue where we go from here.

Ok.

It is late and I will come back to this in the morning.

What I will say to you tonight is, it is ok to say to him I am stepping back, it is ok to do so. You do not have to stay bound to him and his vagaries.

Tell your brother that you are stepping back so that he understands that you have come to the end of your tether.

Try to get some rest and sleep tonight.

Thank you, FlibbertyGiblets, for being kind.

Old people can test the patience of a Saint at times. Complaining, sitting in the chair, sleeping all the time is normal behaviour for a person of that age.

I think you should apologise for screaming at him. It was uncalled for.
You have resentment from your childhood years you should get counselling for this.

Re his paper, whether your brother brings it to him or not isn't really anything to do with you so it was wrong of you to interfere with that arrangement.

Step back. Stop being so available.
Stop digging and planting shopping etc. It's adding to your resentment.
Assume you live nearby?
Why are your children involved? Did they overhear your argument?
Can you contact your Community nurse and get practical help? Carers?

I don't think she did interfere with the brother and paper arrangements op is just saying that after this argument her dad refused the paper from her brother. Ditto the kids, she's just saying when they yelled at her she's never cut her kids off

OP I am sorry this has happened. I am up with a baby so just thought I'd reply as awake.

Just because he's old it doesn't mean he's a nice person and you have to put up with any way that he behaves. Yes there is a degree of as some people get older they sit in the chair and they sleep etc, and some.bad behaviour can be excused but ultimately it sounds like he's an emotionally abusive father who has continued to be emotionally abusive.

I'd leave him be for a while, he's unlikely at this stage to not talk to you for 10 years because he needs you more than the last time. If he really doesn't want the chickens then it's probably best to get rid but next time he wants something similar don't facilitate it.

i think you can apologise for shouting without that being an admission of, or engaging with, anything beyond that, if that would make you feel better about that part of it. Clearly you have immense past issues with your dad, which are not going to be resolved by any great epiphany from him at this stage. But it sounds as if stepping away completely will make you feel worse, plus he obviously does need some support; if you don’t provide it then arrangements will need to be made for someone else to do so. And at the moment, someone has to care for the chickens; it’s not their fault!

i always had a very good relationship with my mum, but caring for her for 20 months nearly broke it. She is now 96 and in a care home, and I still react inwardly like an angry teenager when she orders me about or ignores my completely rational advice. It must be far worse dealing with an ageing parent where there is so much baggage. I guess my advice is - let the path unfold gradually, you can’t see too far ahead. It sounds as if your brother is providing some help, so it’s not all on you. Think clearly about what you are and aren’t prepared to do, and don’t take on more than you can just because he’s your father. But if on balance you were enjoying the better relationship, then I’d apologise for shouting and tell yourself that he is no longer someone with control over you. The power has passed to you.

If he says something irrational like suddenly deciding to get rid of chickens he enjoys, you could treat him like a stroppy child, just say, “ok, let’s see if you still feel the same way in a few days, because it’s not something I can do right now.” Probably he won’t mention it again, if he’s doing it to upset you or if he is developing some mental changes. My mum does not have dementia, but she is not as considerate or empathetic as she used to be. Those parts of her brain, like her body, just don’t work as well as they did. If your father was a difficult man before, unfortunately that is likely to be even more the case now. You have to decide how to navigate that, but that’s a process that will take time. You’re human and you were being much more generous to him than many people would have been. Be kind to yourself.

Thank you for your replies, they make a lot of sense.

The chickens are alright, I’m still looking out for them and they’re going to a friend who has a few other hens and a larger plot of land. I’ll miss them but I can’t manage them totally on my own. When my father says there is no one to look after them he means he doesn't want even the little responsibility he has for them – I just wish he'd tell the truth and perhaps acknowledge what I am doing rather than complain about what I’m not doing.

My father lives up the road from us and it’s easy for me to pop in and make sure he’s okay. I don’t resent doing anything for him and just want him to be happy and comfortable. He hasn’t been able to tend his garden like he used to and seeing it overgrown was making him sad so I picked up a spade a few years back and have been trying to keep it in order but it seems that nothing will make him any happier. Being around someone who is constantly miserable is hard. If you greet him with a cheery ‘alright?’ he’ll huff and say ‘nuh, which is what my mother used to do. He’s taken over from her in the way that if someone asks ‘how are you?’ he tells them how bad he is.

As for the past, I’ve mostly but it aside and it doesn’t affect our days. It came up again when I had my screaming fit probably because I was overwrought. I had years of counselling when I was younger and usually have a level head.

It might be odd to say this but I think I’ve become over involved (I didn’t consider having to set myself boundaries). As an adult he should really take responsibility for his own happiness. His house needs more attention than I can give it but he won’t pay anyone to help. I’m going away for a week or so and need to put things straight before I go. He is stubborn, I know he needs food and I’ll get him groceries regardless of what he says (his shopping list is basically the same every week). I want to say to him that okay I shouted but no real harm was done and we have to move on from it and get back to normal.

im a great believer in not infantilising the elderly. He’s being a miserable git and not helping himself, he has full capacity and he can take responsibility for his own decisions. By all means apologise for being a bit of a harridan but let him live with the consequences of his choices. And have a lovely week away, it sounds like you’ve earned it.

With kindness, what are you doing op?! This is a man who has physically hurt you and cut you off for 10 years when you dared to question it.

You are still trying to win his love and approval.

If he wasn't your Dad, he would just be an abusive bully.

Yes, I have screamed at my ex-Mother and that was it. No more running around after her or contact ever again. Being a parent isn't a free pass to treat your child abysmally.

Have a lovely week away OP. I think you are right when you say you are over involved. There is a balance between ensuring his needs are taken care of and attending to his every whim. If he wants to be a miserable, grumpy man then fine, you can ensure he is fed and watered but you don't need to be getting metaphorical chickens every other week, and garden might just have to give, unless he wants to pay someone. And if he doesn't, that's ok, that's his lookout.

I know how it is, my DM is only late 60s and there's always some drama. I rarely say anything but earlier this week called her out on something that had been an outright lie (she said a sibling had done something quite big and I asked the sibling who had no idea what I was talking about). She then retreats to a sort of I'm a little old lady who is just confused standpoint (she's really not, she was caught out in a lie and it was sent via text so I was able to re read to check there was no misunderstanding). I didn't apologise I just left her to it til she came to me, which she did quite quickly. There's no point discussing further, but I won't be supportive on the related issue (she wants the sibling to do the thing she lied about) I just won't be involved.

Sounds like you need a break and a holiday. Tell him and your brother that you will be taking a short break away from your father but that you will be happy to do his shopping again in two weeks time ( or 6 weeks) abs that things will be better after you’ve have a bit of space and a rest.

Have you/he thought about applying for attendance allowance for your dad?

It's not means tested and would give him some money to perhaps use for a gardener, cleaner, companion, taxi to see his friends or anything that would help take some of the pressure of you!

At least when you visit it would be because you wanted to rather than 'had to'

It's hard - you have all my sympathy

Thank you again for your responses - they are really helping.

I don’t feel dutybound to my father and don’t mind doing anything for him. Things have been going well and our relationship was better than it had ever been. Even though I can’t completely forget the past I’ve not let it get in the way.

Earlier I asked him to explain a few things that he’d said and, like the mother in the post above, he acted all confused. I tried to talk about the shouting incident. I said, ‘I’ve got angry once in 20 years and think I’ve done a lot more good than that.’ I would have liked a two-way conversation but he leaned on the kitchen top muttering and rolling his eyes. He doesn’t like me right now and may never like me again, which rather makes a mockery of the nice relationship I thought we were growing. Conflict is so unpleasant and I know I need to back away but even though he’s an adult I worry about him being upset. This seems to be a molehill turning into a mountain.

Re carer’s allowance – he already gets this payment but won’t spend it, though he has offered to pay me for cleaning.

You worry about him being upset but he doesn't worry about you being upset does he. If he won't spend money on the garden etc it's OK to leave it, it's his choice to make.

If you didn't clean would he pay someone? Is he only not spending it because you will do it, or would he live in squalor? Or if push came to shove would he actually get a cleaner? It's one thing to not do the garden, but I completely understand not wanting him to live in poor conditions

Also, it might be worth reading about codependency. You seem very concerned about his feelings, which is admirable, but you can't make him feel the way you want. You thought you were growing a good relationship, he just thought you were a daughter who would do things for him. It might be his age, it might just be him but ultimately you don't have the relationship you'd like and you never will. It doesn't exist. It may be really worth considering putting some boundaries in place.

I'm caring for my elderly father OP, he's dying of liver cancer. It's especially hard because he walked out on us as teenagers, and we didn't have a relationship for years. He's also made some poor relationship choices including having a young Ukranian girlfriend who fleeced every penny from him (well over £50k) then fled. He was 60, she was 19 (the same age as my eldest DD at the time) and he dragged her round to meet every single relative in the family - meaning my sister and I got all the laughing behind his back. It was horrific.

I do what I can for him. I sort out his medical needs, and go over to shower him a few evenings a week and do one full day at the weekend. I get odd bits of food shopping and sort out his finances. My sister does her bit too as she lives closer, she drops in and makes him a meal/makes sure he takes his medicines etc.

Do what makes you feel "OK" about it, and accept that he's the Dad he is and not the one you want him to be - if that makes sense. But don't put your own life on hold to do so.

Googled 'codependency' and this came up: What is a codependent person like?
Lacking trust in yourself and having poor self-esteem. Having fears of abandonment or an obsessive need for approval... I didn't need to read on :)

My abandoment issues are longstanding and am astonished that I'm today old and still messing up.

My father wouldn't pay a cleaner - he would do the basics himself. I don't clean all the time, I blitz every so often.

Badger1970 sorry to hear about your father.

This might make you all laugh. I got married at 39. My parents wouldn't come to the wedding because it was 20 years too late. 'You should have got married at 19 but you always did what you wanted to do.' I was in trouble for not doing something I didn't know I was expected to do and didn't have anyone to marry even if I wanted to. Seriously you couldn't make it up!🙃

Oh bless you!

Some things occur to me-

You haven't built a 'nice relationship' with him, sorry. You've learned to avoid what sets him off. Relationships are two way, he should worry about why you are being so shirty, and be upset that you are upset. Instead he's angry that you've stepped out of line.

It's ok to choose to do more than he deserves. That's a choice I've made too. I do what I can square my conscience with, and it's about who I am not who she is.

As you identify earlier, you can't make him happy. Nothing you do can make that happen. Only he can do that.

You are applying rational skills- hard earned ones, through your own self reflection and therapy- to a situation that isn't rational. His internal system is driving his behaviour. You can't actually remodel it for him. He has to do that.
You may be able to nudge it along a bit- train him in the way he trains you.

Stop trying so hard. Make him take on some of the emotional labour.

Stop being so reliable. At a guess he doesn't value that- he probably sees it as boring, that you don't have anything better to do. He doesn't respect you.
Be a bit more volatile. Be busy.
Can't come tomorrow Dad, will send Bill with the groceries and see you next week.
Couldn't get the food you wanted, but got you this instead.

I went through similar with my DM recently and a wise woman on the Cockroaches thread said something that resonated - you are not responsible for their happiness.

So I’ve stepped back for a bit and tried to ignore the guilt. If she’s warm and comfortable and safe then that’s good enough for me.

I am sorry you had this to deal with, sounds so difficult! Don't feel bad for losing it, you were pushed and pushed until you couldn't any more. You are only human!

Your dad sounds a lot like my parents. They are both still around, but both behaving similar to your dad and I am getting so close to blowing myself, and I worry it could be soon. Doesn't want this doesn't want that. Wanting one thing one minute, another the next, etc. Saying they didn't say things they did say (not senile), and being really awkward and thin skinned if I dare say anything.

I would try to move on from it, continue talking to your dad and if he carries on his sulkiness, that's on him. Is there any other family who could step in and help? You are entitled to feel angry, no matter how old people are or who they are to you, they don't have the right to make you feel bad or push your buttons.

Thank you again for posting. Sorry to hear that a lot of you are going through tough stuff as well.
My chickens are now in their new home with new friends and I'm feeling relieved.
Trying to be rational in an irrational situation like you say, is hard. Stopping worry and guilt is harder 😊 but I'm trying.

When all of this happened to you from the same person you will always have difficulty in not bringing up the past. You need to take a few steps back, and give up trying to seek his approval. You will never get it. All this behaviour from him is emotional blackmail. Be good to your self for a change you have earned this right. X

Fuck him OP! Seriously, just step back. I personally do not think that you owe him an apology given his behaviour. Leave him be.

Late to the party but this could be me. Why are people telling you to apologise, if it was a friend/ stranger you would walk away. People saying he's elderly, he wasn't elderly 20 years ago! My D the same, only calls me when he wants something, my M backs him. Recently, they were both in hospital, said they would have help and then when he gets home convinces M they don't need it, tells me to p*s off and raises his hand, he's 86, yes, I shouted at him for doing what he did, should I have just stood there? It has been like this for the last 25 years, he raised his hand to me 8 years ago and I went NC for a few months but M convinced me to go and see them. Well at this current time, I have backed away, I feel relief and guilt which is odd. I replay the things he's said to me and done over the years, a real headf**k but makes me think I've done the right thing. I ring M, if she needs anything I'm there.