Internalized misogyny at work: young women and older male partners

[bangingmyheadagainstthewall2]

I have posted something similar to this before so it may be familiar, although this issue is coming to a head so I'd like your thoughts.

I am a Partner in a large global consultancy firm. In my sector there are 4 Partners who lead various verticals: three 50-something year old men (who have been there for the last 30 years), and me (F39) who has been there for 7 years. Despite the tenure difference, we are all on the same level and are equal.

Between us we have a team of 15 people aged between 20-27, They are graduates to middle management level consultants who we share in terms of them helping us with projects and learning the job. 10 out of 15 of these are female. We are responsible for their development and promotion etc and we are their direct bosses. Promotion of people is a consensus-led decision, ie you have work across the sector and in varied environments and clients before you get promoted.

The three male partners I share the sector with are huge dick swingers, constantly taking the young, female consultants out for drinks and dinners, bringing them in on high-level client projects, giving them lots of career "opportunities" and promising them promotions that they can't deliver. I have heard the partners tell them what they earn when they are drunk (which is the same as I earn except I don't talk about it) they take the consultants out, buy them dinners, go to parties and events. I instead approach the consultants in the prescribed company style, which is that if they have a specialism in a certain sector, or want to learn it, you bring them in to a project.

Somewhere along the line, they have developed the idea (probably from late night drinks with the male partners bragging) that I am more junior and will not be as helpful to them as the male partners. And this is simply not true. It honestly feels like a huge amount of internalized misogyny. As a result, the "pool" of consultants available to me for my projects is very small, despite the fact I bring in business revenues equal to (and more!) than the male partners in the sector.

I also get a lot of borderline comments from the consultants (obviously conditioned by the male partners) eg, I asked (let's call her Becky) Becky to get involved with a project I was doing. It was definitely something within her stated expertise area, and she was the right person to work with me. She came to me in my office and said : (Let's call him Martin)

"Martin and I have decided that I am not the appropriate person for your project because he needs me to be "on call" for another project he might have coming in."

There have been times when I have been called for help by the male partners to "go and deal with" some of the younger female consultants who have become very upset at work or are crying in their offices. I talk to them and they open up to me and I tell them that I want to help and want to find them a solution. I offer them advice but it's always accepted with a caveat around how I can't possibly be as powerful as "Martin" or the other two partners to change things for them, and a kind of (to paraphrase) "thanks but there's nothing you can do."

Obviously the power structures here are completely off.

Short of walking around shouting "do you know who I am?" What is the answer? And don't say HR as I've had several conversations with them (mostly women) and they all roll their eyes and say they know, it's shit, that's what the male partners are like.

Any key words or phrases I can use?

It’s a shame, these young women will only wake up and work out the misogyny once
they themselves become middle aged, more
senior and their looks no longer get them ahead.

10 of the 15 are women so there are 5 men. Can you route your projects and work through them?

Don’t just route your stuff through the men - that will create problems long term.

Do you get junior staff involved in networking and business development? If not - or not very much - then I think this could be a way of getting junior staff more interested in working with you.

Are these junior colleagues billable? Because if they are they are resourced according to demand and a required utilisation rate.

They may need reminding of that if it's the case.

I'm in a male dominated industry, tech, and a female leader and I've noticed the internalised misogyny in some younger women. This is a two fold cultural issue. The one within your company and the one outside your company.

You mentioned that you lead/manage according to company culture, so the other 3 men aren't, they have created a subculture.

I know you say you don't want to speak to HR but if there is an HR partner that you are friendly with I'd say it's worth a chat. I've seen several campaigns across the companies I've worked for where they go back over the culture at a globally or regionally to address specific issues or to ensure they are resetting. HR will know if this is planned, there maybe a wider issue they know about that you don't.

One of those is usually around codes of conduct for example. Sounds like your 3 colleagues are acting dubiously.

And I know you said HR rolled their eyes but I'd push it again. Their job is to protect the company and the staff, they aren't doing that. I would go up the chain if you get another eye roll.

Thank you all, this is excellent advice. I will be using a lot of it.

I think some of the younger female consultants have "picked up" on the power dynamic and others have just been "told" by the male partners. I remember I had a bit of it when I came in at age 32 "oh don't worry about so and so, they might be the same level as me, but they don't call the shots around here."

Agree it's a culture problem. It happens in other sectors too. I know there are other female partners who are really upset about it and not handling it well.

There's just so much to do and say, I don't know where to start!

@bangingmyheadagainstthewall2 I think you are not accepting that actually the culture is there and it dies exist you need to accept that so that you can navigate the actual culture not the one you would like to have. Is the whole firm 4 partners? If so then it is the majority who set the culture.

I'd start with the data - do those who have worked on your projects get promoted? If not, then what can you do to make it so? I'm not suggesting promoting someone who does not deserve it but strong sponsorship/mentoring so that they fulfil their potential.

Then I'd start finding a way of making that data better known, not overtly in a league table but through a talent management process, where the career path for the consultants is discussed openly and they understand that they need 4 yeses not 3 to progress

40 years in a male dominated industry - you have my sympathy

The company culture is shite and if HR are doing nothing about it - leave. I work in one of the big 4 and this would not fly here. From the inappropriate wining and dining to the consultants refusing projects. As a partner here, you'd assign work, having consulted with the other partners in your area and you couldn't have someone sitting around 'on call' because they wouldn't meet their targeted hours?!

I think you need to stop concentrating on the perceived internalised misogyny aspect.

I strongly agree with this. The problem is not the younger women's internalised misogyny but the male partners' behaviour.

Other partners should not be monopolising junior staff, not with actual work and certainly not keeping them free for work which may or may not materialise. That's unfair on you (not having staff to delegate to) and on the junior staff (missing out on actual opportunities in favour of things which may or may not materialise). I think this is where I would start in terms of speaking to the other partners, as it's clearly wrong irrespective of the sexes of the people involved.
Likewise, you shouldn't be doing more than your share of soft management just because you are female. You can raise all of this simply as poor use of resources- I'm sure you're right that there is sexism at the root but you can kill off the root by cutting down the plant (does that metaphor work? Not sure.)

Taking younger staff for drinks etc- you could do this too. The fact that it's a bit sleazy and false when the male partners do it doesn't mean it's not a good way of establishing working relationships. There's nothing wrong with being proactive about this stuff and copying the good bits of the other partners' behaviour while leaving out the bad.

I remember lots of partners who acted like the male partners in your group do when I started my career 20 years ago (law), but I'm pleased to say they are now a vanishing breed. So if you've simply had enough, changing firms might be an option- I wouldn't assume it's the same everywhere.

I don’t work for a big consultancy, but I’ve used them as a client. Also put up with similar, my suggestions are

• in the case of Becky, I bet Martin hasn’t said that, or if he did he was drunk. You just need to tell Becky she’s on your project, if Martin wants to take her off it, he should come and talk to you (because he won’t)
• Use your client base, I always knew the dick swinging partners, they were annoying, they tried the same bollocks on clients sometimes, significantly less likely to work. Clients want good, competent, fast acting consultants, have the best most interesting projects and you’ll get the best juniors, and best chance to move up the partner ladder
• Not sure what the female equivalent of big swinging dick is linguistically, but you have that advantage.Play the advantages as much as the old men do. You’ve done amazing well to make partner under 40, make sure the team know you’re the role model. If they need to learn from anyone it should be you. Offer coffees with all the juniors (regardless of sex), a lot of them will be grateful to avoid the late night drinking, talk about how the world is changing, thankfully it’s moving away from all these all dinosaurs. Tell them you’re passionate about supporting people to have the same success you have, female mentorship and support etc.

You have to play the game, it’s shit but these firms are all about game playing. Just work out your best position, and change the rules to suit you. And don’t put up with the shit from juniors, sometimes you just have to pull rank

I'd let it go OP. The young women don't see you as less than the male partners, they just realise they can gain advantages from them that you aren't offering. Daddy issues and/or self interest motivate most of this behaviour and it's not your problem.

You need to outwit them. That's my tack. Predict their next moves (shouldn't be too difficult) and plan counter moves in advance. Rather than going into a confrontation, find out ways to wrong foot them. It's a power game they're playing and you should focus on your own game.

Seems like a pretty typical professional services set up.

I appreciate your frustration. On the other hand, as a partner myself I know the reality is you have to compete for good junior resource and earn loyalty. You say the other three are:

"constantly taking the young, female consultants out for drinks and dinners, bringing them in on high-level client projects, giving them lots of career "opportunities" and promising them promotions".

I can see how juniors would appreciate all of that. So what are you doing to get people enthused by work?

This is good advice.

Why did you allow Becky's response to go unchecked?
She needed putting in her place as her answer was disrespectful and unprofessional.

If you are allowing that type of incident to pass you, you have a real mountain to climb.

You need to work on your assertiveness.

HR need to do more than role their eyes, again, not acceptable.

Would professional coaching be an idea?

I think the Becky incident is a perfect example of you not being taken seriously, nor respected.

Work hard on your assertiveness and then look at a move and a fresh start.

The dynamic is established where you are and I don't see you changing it

I think this is a great post. Particularly the last paragraph.

You have no idea what the men have told them. They will have implied or told them that you are less senior than them. There will be the ‘well technically she is the same level but that’s not how it is’. I can’t blame the younger women for doing what they think will help further their career.

You need to start dick swinging. People need to know and see what influence you have over their careers and development and why workinf with you is advantageous. You need to be ensuring that people know you are an equal to the men on the same level as you.

This. So in response to:

"Martin and I have decided that I am not the appropriate person for your project because he needs me to be "on call" for another project he might have coming in."

"Becky you seem to be confused, if Martin wants to discuss this project allocation then he needs to do so with me as we share exactly the same job role and need to work collaboratively to allocate projects for maximum efficiency. Please don't come to my office and inform me of an apparently joint decision that isn't your call to make. In the meantime I'll discuss with Martin now to avoid confusion in future."

Apart from stating that you are on an equal level to the 3 stooges if ever it appears that someone has a misapprehension that you aren't is there some kind of diagram about the company structure for newbies ? I worked in education so obviously very different but there were charts of department structures , department leaders , line mangers etc that were sent out annually for appraisal systems - there's alot of that in teaching - but they did clarify everyone's levels ? Also as others have suggested there's nothing wrong with just saying well I'm just as senior as them !

That wasn't a request, Becky

@Becky: Response, With All due respect, it is not for you to decide what work will be assigned to you, you have been identified as the correct fit for this project due to xyz, please apply yourself appropriately.

@Crying girls request: Response to Martin/Big other swinging dick; Sorry this is matter relevant to x project which you are running, it would be demeaning of me, to be the carebear of the office.

coming at it the other way, what are you doing to incentivise your projects? Do the team feel appreciated?

So often in that kind of environment projects are sold as ‘development opportunities’ but they are a bit crap.

TBH I had no aspirations of being a Partner, and so I would be looking for projects I enjoy.

So in your scenario, I’d definitely choose the projects that came with the promise of fun team drinks, meals out etc etc. even if they weren’t quite right for my long term career.

I experience similar problems and am of a similar age and seniority level in a different industry (financial services). I found things started to change only when there were more female partners. We hired one in from outside and promoted one internally. Between the three of us we have been able to tilt the culture slightly. It takes time, effort and involves you constantly going "above and beyond" to move things along. However, I see things changing and that is very motivating. I would say that you can't change the culture on your own - you need senior allies. Is there any scope to hire in senior women and/or promote from within? If not, what about men from a different generation - one where their female partners are more likely to work too, so they are less likely/able to be in the BSD/breadwinner mindset? I find the issue isn't so much men per se. The issue is men of a particular generation (usually in their 50's and 60's). They are trapped in a mindset that worked 10 years ago but doesn't jibe with modern sensitiblities and working practices.

I think the practical advice people have given around being more assertive and/or changing the way you staff projects misses the point. You need a sea change in your firm's culture. You can't achieve this on your own. You need partner-level allies who see things the way you do. Either that is possible through internal promotion or external hiring. If not, and you can't wait for the old guard to retire, I think you're better off taking your talents elsewhere.

Hi OP
I know you said that HR were not an option, but they are not performing in their roles if they don’t attempt to tackle this situation. It could only take one incident at a drinks/dinner for them to be having to deal with a very difficult situation which could have been prevented. What if they hire someone who doesn’t drink or want to spend their evenings dining alone with a male boss? Is that person going to be unfairly discriminated against when it comes to being offered interesting work? If they don’t do the drinks/dinners for religious or cultural reasons, then HR could find themselves with a lot of work to do. They can’t sit on the fence with this as an incident could affect the organisation’s reputation.

It will take time to change things and I’d understand if you moved on in the meantime as they seem to be stuck in the 1970s culture wise.

If you are able to talk to HR, talk about the current climate, staff retention, the ability to attract staff and outline your proposals as how to go about improving this. Explain that culturally, your organisation is a dinosaur. Tell them in writing that they need to seriously consider mandatory cultural awareness training for all staff (longer training for the more senior people), mandatory diversity, equality and inclusion training (DEI), setting up a mentoring programme and offering coaching training to promote a coaching culture. Be seen as someone who is keen to work with them improve the workplace for all and attract more clients in doing so.

Don’t be regarded as the company Agony Aunt and refuse to attend any callouts for upset staff (unless it is related to your work). A firm “I don’t know why you’ve come to me with your problem; that’s not my role or responsibility. I suggest you call HR to handle it” is the answer here.

Also, generally don’t have anything to do with things that traditionally fall to women in offices to organise – sending flowers to sick colleagues, organising collections for those leaving etc. Meet any requests for this sort of thing with a shocked expression and “why on earth are you asking me this?”

Some other very good suggestions on here such as user1477249785 comment at · 16/10/2022 21:19 and the suggestion by Discovereads to set up regular meetings to agree who is working on what.

I’d also be rewriting my CV at this point and looking for an organisation that is good enough for you!