marriage crisis point - DH won't help (or get help)

[pixieboots4]

Been with DH a long time (20plus years). If I'm honest, things haven't been great for a while. Difficult few years with bereavements, extended family issues, money worries etc...but while these external circumstances are now improving, our relationship seems to be getting worse and I don't know what to do.

We've got four lovely kids who are pretty easy as kids go, and despite the trying things mentioned above, we actually have a lot of good stuff in our lives. DH has always been prone to dark moods and irritability and they are worsening as he ages. He's never been great at talking about his feelings or managing his temper.

Last night he had an awful row with our 14 year old daughter. She was trying to speak to him calmly about why she was upset and he was shouting back at her with shit like 'I don't care what you think', 'I don't need your opinion', 'you're talking nonsense' etc etc. Really controlling and dismissive. He later calmed down, apologised, and told her that he loved her - at least that's something, I suppose, but it's not okay and today, despite my attempts to speak to him about it, he's stonewalling and refusing to discuss it with me.

The whole thing has left me extremely shaken. We've had scenes like this before and his temper and vile authoritarian attitude when he gets into one of these moods is unacceptable. I know he/we need counselling as to how he can manage his emotions and anger levels but he hates discussing his feelings, and it's not going to be an easy process getting him there. Plus I don't know if it will even work.

Sorry this is long. I guess I'm asking if anyone has experienced similar, and if therapy truly did make a difference to your relationship dynamics? Any advice would be so appreciated. Thank you.

Were his own parents of the authoritarian type? I ask because my late husband was raised like this and the moment anything stressed him out, that was what came out. He honestly believed his parents were perfect and could do no wrong.

And no, it wasn't fixable. There were other factors involved (alcohol) but his beliefs about parenting were also a fundamental problem and it really affected our DDs who were good kids and easy teenagers.

You can try, but if he refuses counselling, you should consider walking away for the sake of your children. Authoritarian parenting is poor parenting.

@pointythings - thank you. His childhood is definitely a factor. His relationship with his parents is difficult. They in themselves weren't heavily authoritarian, but DH went to boarding school at an early age. There was never a huge amount of genuine emotional support for him growing up and he has very little contact with his parents as an adult - something that brings him great sadness. Unlike your ex, he does acknowledge it

You'd hope this would influence him into wanting to do things differently. Some of the time he can be a warm loving affectionate parent and spouse (believe me, if he was an angry shouty bastard all the time I would walk away) but we seem to be having more of this kind of thing as he ages.

I'm sorry it wasn't fixable for you and your relationship. Did you try therapy at any point?

What time as the row about?

@pixieboots4 no, we didn't try therapy because by the time things started getting so bad in terms of his parenting, his alcoholism had already taken hold and addressing that was the priority. Which also failed and it all ended very badly, but that's another story.

If he's willing to address his issues in therapy it sounds as if it may be worthwhile giving it a go because clearly his early life experiences have been damaging. It's hard to be a parent to teenagers when your teenage years have been affected by not having your family around. I wish you all the very best of luck.

@Smileeriley - not sure what you're asking?

@pointythings - thanks again and sorry you went through all that. I've asked DH to get some help with how he manages his emotions many times, but he's never gone and done it. He usually (although not today) apologises and promises to try to improve things. Never works though.

I think I'll have to be the one who finds a therapist and issues an ultimatum about going, because it's tearing our family apart. He will be reluctant.

Sorry op, stupid phone. What was the row about?

Therapy will only benefit your DH if he has ownership of the idea that he has a difficulty that he wants to think about and seek help with.

If hehe doesn't think that then no therapy can help him.

The only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is none.

He may well be a product of his upbringing but that in itself is no reason nor justification for how he is behaving within the family unit. To my mind walking on eggshells is code for living in fear and your H remains volatile.

Many people have poor childhoods for many and varied reasons but they do not go onto treat their wife/husband/family like you guys are being treated by him. You as his wife here are not some rehab centre for such a badly raised man. Abusers too are not nasty all the time but their nice/nasty cycle is a continuous one. What you could well be seeing here is the nice/nasty cycle.

What is he like outside the home?. Does he hold down a job?. I would think he does not address his fellow work colleagues nor people in the street in such a manner. If he indeed does not treat outsiders like this then it is for you people alone this abusive treatment (and it is abuse) is primarily aimed at. Abuse is not a anger management problem. He has a problem with anger, your anger, when you rightly call him out on his behaviour.

If you issue an ultimatum you have to a) be prepared to follow through on it and b) only issue it once; repeated ultimatums lose all their power.

Joint counselling with an abuser is not at all recommended and besides which abuse is not a relationship problem. Abuse is about power and control.

I would further state you cannot help him ultimately. You have a choice re this man and your children do not. Ultimately you can choose to rescue your own self and your kids from further misery. Speaking of these children what are they learning about relationships from the two of you?. Is this really the role model you want to continue to show them?. What are you yourself getting out of this relationship now?.

What is your definition of abuse?.

If you find a therapist to work with I would urge you to go on your own. You need to be able to talk in both a calm and safe environment. I would also consider what you yourself learnt about relationships when you were growing up. What sort of a relationship example did your parents show you?.

@Smileeriley - It was when we sat down to eat. Mealtimes are often a flashpoint. DH is big on table manners and often pulls the kids up on how they are behaving. Broadly, I agree - they are far from toddler age and should know how to act. There was a silly thing where my younger daughter threw a bit of her own salad onto her little brother's plate, he threw it back, and DH erupted at them in anger. It wasn't great behaviour, of course, but DH's reaction seemed way over the top. Eldest DD told him that he thought he was being too harsh, and it made things worse. She got very upset.

Your poor, poor DD. Aged 14 and she’s already learned to try to reason with and pacify an abusive ADULT man.

I hope she doesn’t grow up to be a doormat in a relationship with another abusive man.

@Bumpsadaisie - I think DH knows this is beginning to destroy us, but he buries his head in the sand. I have tried to talk to him again just now - he's WFH in a different part of the house, and he basically just shouted at me to 'go away'

When my husband was displaying unacceptable behaviour, I printed off a list of counsellors for him and asked him to contact a couple. I really didn't think he would but to my surprise he did, found one he liked and has had quite a bit of remote counselling with her. It hasn't solved everything but has really helped him. We never discuss anything he speaks to her about but he says chatting to her helps so I'm pleased. Worth a try?

@FrancescaContini - you’ve hit the nail on the head. Poor girl. Abused by her dad and her mum looks on. What a blueprint for a relationship for her in the future - not!

@AttilaTheMeerkat - you are right of course. I've made the point to him that he doesn't speak to colleagues and friends the way he speaks to us. I have issued ultimatums in the past but haven't really followed them through, and it's getting worse. Of course, I am not perfect, and the kids aren't perfect. But I've had therapy in the past - and the kids are smart, switched on young people who know what is and isn't right when it comes to communication.

@FrancescaContini - yes. It's awful. She said last night 'the way Dad is doesn't feel right'. I'm glad she's mature enough to KNOW this isn't normal or acceptable behaviour. However, I also think her and her siblings would be devastated if I asked him to leave. We are not unhappy all the time.

@Changeismine - that is very encouraging to hear.

Update - DH just came to see me. He was tearful and apologetic. He admitted he has been feeling depressed and promised that he will sort it out with getting some professional help.

So that is something. I discussed the idea of seeing someone together and he said 'but you're not the problem, I am'. He wants to do it himself when I suggested helping him find someone.

I want to be kind and understanding (though internally I feel more anger than sympathy right now) and let him do it on his own terms. But I'm worried that he will let this slide, not find a therapist, and then we'll be back at square one. Any thoughts on how I should handle this?

@LindseyHoyleSpeaks - not sure how helpful your post is. I wasn't exactly 'looking on'. I told him very firmly he was being unacceptable, and later discussed everything with my daughter and comforted her.

“Yes, it’s awful (that she has to deal with an angry father) however…” however however…

There will always be a “however”. Isn’t it bad enough that your children are growing up having to learn how to pacify and accommodate abusive behaviour? What do you think this means for how they manage relationships as adults?

Hi, OP - do your DH have health insurance through his employer? If so, many policies cover mental health issues (which this absolutely is), and you can usually self refer for them. This may be a good way for your DH to find a therapist, as it can be difficult to know how to start. Good luck with it all - I hope you can all find a way through.

Pixie, that's a good update. Very encouraging that he has acknowledged that he is 'the problem'. I think he's right that he should see a therapist alone. You need to leave him to it for now, and let him make these arrangements for himself, and hopefully he will get this moving soon

I used to be a lot like your husband. Shouty, irritable, quick to anger. I was in a huge amount of pain, full of grief and dealing with a legacy of emotional abuse in childhood. I'm not making any excuses for his behaviour but it sounds like he has some very difficult and painful feelings which he is struggling to deal with. I was in therapy (psychodynamic therapy) for 7 years. It was the best thing I have ever done for myself, but it was no quick fix, and my god it was tough. Absolutely worth it, but bloody gruelling. Good luck to both of you

Btw, if he does need help finding a therapist, he can Google BACP - British Association of Counselling and Psychotherapy. You can search for psychotherapists by locality and by specialism. I would recommend psychodynamic psychotherapy, NOT CBT

@FrancescaContini - yes I know it's not good at all in terms of relationship modelling. I'm not excusing or enabling DH's behaviour, I am trying to get advice from those who have experienced similar as to how we might be able to change things.

He's never had any therapy and we've never had any professional support as a couple on that front. Obviously with four kids and a decades-long marriage, I want to try to get to a better place and not just LTB. It might be that we cannot salvage it of course...yet it would be silly not to try.

@Lottapianos - thank you so much. That is very good to hear and that's wonderful that therapy worked so well for you. I had some help for anxiety issues years ago and it was life-changing. Out of interest, why do you recommend psychodynamic psychotherapy and not CBT?

That's a step in the right direction. I think you should be vulnerable/ honest with him and say that you're worried it won't happen (him getting the help) and it would really help your peace of mind to have a 'deadline'. What date does he suggest? I would then ask, what does he think should happen if he misses that deadline, to help him stick to it? See what he comes up with. If he misses the deadline, I would have a discussion where you say he has one more week and then he needs to leave for a bit. The problem is your and your children's pain might not currently be motivating enough to get him to do something so he might need to 'feel the pain' in another way eg. Moving out until he can get better.