Mother/daughter relationship. Perspective please.

[Stripypopsicle]

I have name changed for this incase anyone I know linked it to my other posts, but I could really use some perspective on this please.

Having recently been on the narcissistic mothers thread, the more I saw, the more I felt that I could possibly see my own mother in some of people’s descriptions. But then I think maybe I am over stretching and seeing things that are not there.

I feel so guilty even writing this, I’m not sure I’m going to be brave enough to actually post it but I could really use an outside perspective.

I love my mum and she has a lot of good qualities, everyone thinks she is wonderful
And how lucky I am to have her as my mum, but I feel there is also a side to her that only I see and experience (hence why I wonder if my perspective is off and I’m imagining it.)

I have spent ages writing something out but it feels so disloyal and disrespectful to post it, so I have deleted a lot of it and will try and post something smaller below.

Nothing is every good enough for her and I always feel like I have disappointed her or let her down somehow. For as long as I can remember I have always sought the approval of my mother and even though nothing was/ is ever deemed good enough, I cannot seem to get out of this mindset of wanting her approval and validation. She will offer a compliment, but that will always be coupled with a criticism.

She doesn’t seem to ever like it when I am in a relationship. She says I don’t give her enough time, don’t want to share details
with her and unless I can date someone who will enhance the family, then I shouldn’t be with them.

I spend everyday feeling incredibly guilty that I don’t do enough for her and am made to feel her requests are perfectly reasonable and saying no makes me a horrible person. She will often cry and point out all she has done for me and that she’s not asking for much by asking me to do x,y and z.

As a child, materialistically, I had everything I ever wanted, but now seeing it as an adult, I feel like the emotional side of it wasn’t there in the same way, particularly once I was a teenager.

Appearance means a lot to her. We were always told that things were to remain inside the family and not be discussed outside of it. Led to believe that we would be gossiped about etc so I never trusted anyone with anything. This meant I never confided anything in my friends and even now as an adult (mid 30s) I still struggle in friendships beyond a surface level as I don’t feel able to share anything that’s personal and don’t feel I could trust anyone as there is an ingrained fear that it will be used against me or gossiped about. I’ll only share things that wouldn’t be able to hurt me if they were used against me.

When there was some huge family issues going on at home when I was a teenager, I struggled with them alone as we were explicitly told not to tell anyone. We were told what we were ‘allowed’ to say if asked, and had to stick to this for the good of the family.

Physical Appearance is very important to her. As children, we were always immaculately presented and would not be allowed to leave the house if we did not look perfect (even if it meant changing our outfit in the middle of the day).

I am sadly failing my mum and feel totally inadequate because I am overweight. This is not acceptable to her.

She will tell me she woke in the night and couldn’t get back to sleep because she was worrying about my weight and the effects on my health.

Every time she sees me she wants to talk about my weight and asks if I am planning to lose weight/started a diet and wants to know whether I’ve eaten any ‘bad’ foods and if I’ve messed up the chance to lose weight that day etc. my self-esteem has been rock bottom for a long time, and this doesn’t help. This will also be coupled with comments such as ‘you’d have a nice figure if you lost weight’ and ‘you could be really pretty if you lost the fat.’

I am gay, and when I came out to her, it didn’t go well. At first she said it was just because I hadn’t met the right man, and that if I lose weight men would fancy me. I had to fight my corner and explain I didn’t fancy men. She was upset that I wasn’t going to have the life she wanted for me (husband and kids) and when I pointed out I was still planning to have marriage and children, she gave me many examples of how difficult my life would be as a gay woman. She did eventually accept it but I still feel like I’ve failed her somehow.

Whenever I see a tv show where someone comes out to their parents and it’s accepted with unconditional love and acceptable, it always makes me cry. I wish I had that.

I have sought therapy in the past about my low self esteem and confidence, and when she heard I was going to therapy she wanted to know if I’d be talking about her and if so, what I was saying.

Therapy didn’t help and I stopped. I wasn’t sure if this was just because she was the wrong therapist or because we never got to the root of the issue (I never thought any of it could be linked to my mum until now).

I know I need some therapy. What I don’t know is what I need.

Sorry for this long ramble, if you reached the bottom, I appreciate it and would welcome your thoughts.

I found it easier to direct things back at her, rather than to challenge.

So, mine often comments negatively on my body. (People will think...) I brush it off with
'I'm not that bothered to be honest.'
'I'm not keen on people who think like that'

My nuclear option is to mention the thing about herself that she doesn't like. Either-
'I know but at least I've got slim ankles!'
Or
'Yes, and you've got thick ankles, none of us are perfect!'

Etc.

Or repeat the unpleasant things back at her.

'The chairs have a weight limit?'
'I've put a bit on since last time?'

That way she can't pretend she didn't say what she did, and has to own it.

Your mother needs to control everyone in her orbit. My mother was like this and so I had to go no contact for the sake of my own mental health.

Its really not possible to have a relationship with someone like this. I would drop the rope entirely that she holds out to you here. People like your mother also never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Do read "Will I ever be good enough" by Karyl McBride.

There are red flags all over the place and you are not imagining them. I recognise so much of what you write. It took me until my 40s to start realising I have a disordered mother and had an emotionally abusive upbringing. I second reading "Will I Ever Be Good Enough". Have a look at the Out of the Fog website as there are lots of tools on there, plus a forum. I started online therapy a few weeks ago and it has been very, very helpful so far. I have thought about therapy a few times, but just could not face crying my eyes out in someone's office.

@Cranarc thats really helpful, I’m glad it’s helping. I have sent you a PM! :)

Your mother sounds dreadful I'm so sorry. I grew up in a similar situation. My mother told me I was fat and ugly from an early age and even encouraged me to 'diet' as a size 6 teenager with a borderline eating disorder. She practically forced me to bleach my hair and got me believing my natural colour didn't suit me. Never praised me for anything. Made it very clear I was a disappointment despite good qualifications and professional career. Father was/is sweet but a classic enabler which makes him worse in many ways. I went to therapy in my 20's and ended up losing it and screaming at her at one point never ever to call me fat or comment about my weight/appearance/relationships or job ever again. This led to floods of tears and victimised behaviour on her part. She sort of shut down emotionally towards me after that which was difficult but therapy and support from friends helped. I went very low contact for years. Recently have seen more of her for the kids' sake.. Their other grandmother is worse! However I keep our interactions very unemotional and superficial as she can still hurt me given the opportunity. I have made it very clear I will not tolerate negative comments. A good therapist is invaluable and talking to trusted friends. It feels normal to you as it's all you've known but your therapist will probably be horrified. You'll never make her happy and it's not your responsibility. You can only focus on you and your own mental health and if that means low or no contact then that's a step you need to take. Good luck!

My mum is exactly the same, I’m 50 and it still upsets me for days after seeing her. I avoid seeing her and I only call her once a week. I have to carefully manage every encounter with her as I try to bring out the nice side of her but it very rarely works. I’ve decided that she’s just plain old nasty. I think she is deeply unhappy and dissatisfied with her life and takes it out on everyone around her. It’s very hard but you have to protect your happiness by gently reducing your contact with her, make excuses and give yourself a big break. Then limit contact, when you see her have someone with you, a partner, good friend etc who will either stop her from misbehaving or at least buffer some of her spiteful remarks. I found that it helps to distance my emotions, don’t give her lots of info about you & your life, keep your relationship very shallow.

Your mum sounds toxic.

Therapy now you've recognised that is a great idea. In te meantime you need to see and speak to her less, a lot less. Clever comebacks are all very well but they won't change her. Try halving the amount you see/speak to her straight off. In future you'll probably want to cut that further.

During covid my dm told me that certain masks would suit me better because of my large, sticky out ears!
She once told me that nobody likes me.
She’s begging me to have her at Christmas and I’m away so she will have to ask one of my golden siblings!

everyone thinks she is wonderful and how lucky I am to have her as my mum

This stood out for me. This is a massive warning sign. I got so sick of complete strangers coming up to me in the street and telling me hpw lucky I was to have my wonderful parents. Lucky to be neglected, screamed at, overshared with, bullied into doing things I hated, paraded around as the Perfect Family? Whenever I see a Perfect Family and Wonderful Parents I always assume there's abuse behind closed doors. Could be wrong but that presentation of perfection to the outside world is not healthy or normal.

You need time to create some strong boundaries. Anticipate her varying ways of trying to break them down. Lots of narc parents suddenly offer vast sums of money - with strings attached. Or go into rages and tell the rest of the world how cruel and unreasonable you are being to them (so much for keeping everything behind closed doors).

I know it's over exposed these days as a technique, but grey rock saved my relationship with my dad. I didn't want to cut him out of my life entirely. But I felt ill for days after every visit to my parents. Grey Rock changed that overnight. If she starts on about food, just say: 'I'll bear that in mind.' Say nothing else - just keep repeating a version of this.
If she starts on about finding a man, just say nothing. There is no reply needed to such nonsense.You don't have to entertain it as a conversation.

If she looks like she is about to go into a monologue on how you ought to be different to be what she wants, or if she's about to rant at you, or says anything at all that you just don;t want to have to tackle for whatever reason, pull out your phone and say, "oops - excuse me, I just have to - ' Don't finish the sentence. Just walk out of the room (or the house) and stay away until you feel calm and in control

when you see her have someone with you, a partner, good friend etc who will either stop her from misbehaving or at least buffer some of her spiteful remarks.

This is really excellent advice,. Keep visits short and make sure they have a public element. I used to try to meet my parents to see a show, film or concert (no need to speak to them or eat with them.) But ensuring a third party who keeps her behaviour in check is a brilliant idea.

I’ve tried everything with my mum, if I respond, she gets very defensive and plays the hurt victim, if I’m passive aggressive she gets worse and the whole situation escalates, I’ve tried being super sweet & nice, that sometimes works but very rarely (I use this tactic most frequently as I find it’s the most effective) I have found that emotionally stepping back from the conversation and keeping it very superficial helps for me. Obviously you will have to find your own tools to help with your mothers triggers but it’s worth trying lots. You won’t change her now, you must change how you deal with her. I’m so sorry btw, I know how upsetting it is, the one person in the world who is supposed to adore you treats you badly, it’s all about her, she has a deep problem and is taking it out on you.

May I suggest another perspective?
It took me a long time to realise this, but my mother, like yours, is a byproduct, if you want, of her own mother/childhood. If you look at it from the outside, your mum probably had a mother who had no idea how to parent, that’s what she learnt, that’s all she ever knew, and in turn, perpetuated the abuse.
Mothers like these were terribly hurt in their own childhoods and think parenting the same way they were is the normal way.
My own, armchair psychology, theory is is: children who’s parents were abusive have a stunted development. They are still at the child stage, when they crave secure attachment, it was never given to me and demand it from their own children.
In order to grow and develop we need security, and love, and nurturing. Children expect (and deserve) love. If it wasn’t there when they were little, in their adulthood they don’t have the emotional maturity. Hence the demands, the put downs etc.

You have a choice here: you, as an adult, can parent your inner child and in situations like the ones you describe, protect and love your inner child that keeps being hurt by her mother. The weight comments, I would say: darling, don’t be rude, you’re only displaying a very obvious lack of understanding of the situation. Don’t speak to me like that. And change the subject. When she is complaining about you not visiting, just say: every time I see you and you are rude to me, I ask you to stop attacking me. You’re not listening. I’d rather spend time with someone who actually comes across like they like me. And then change the subject.
HTH.

I agree with this, and there are usually reasons for people behaving badly, but in my own mothers case, I genuinely believe she knows she’s being nasty and if she tried, she could stop it. I have lost sympathy over the years, my mother is 80 now & if anything, is getting worse. If I believed this rationale, it would continue with my own daughters, and it hasn’t. Giving this behaviour the benefit of understanding our mothers past does help explain it and at least may make it feel less personal but does not excuse it.

Hi op mine is nasty too at times. Always a jibe or dig. I do grey rock very helpful tell her little. Counselling has helped. And look at all we did for you comments. Found she very entitled as she got older

Coming back to this thread instead of starting a new one, would welcome any advice.

I recently called my mum out on her negativity etc and the fact she rarely phrases things in a positive way or says positive things. When I called her out on this she said “maybe you just cannot accept praise” and I pointed out she would need to give me praise for me to accept it!

I am with her daily as she needs some care everyday and couldn’t manage without.

Oh stripy. ((Hugs)).

It's really hard, and it's ok to just come here to vent if that's what you need, but she isn't going to change. You can't parent her inner child, as a PP suggested. She can't change when she doesn't accept here's a problem.

The only peace you will get, is from accepting that she is who she is and has little to offer. You can only decide about yourself. What are you prepared to do, and prepared to put up with? That is all which is in your control. You can walk away and leave her to manage/organise care from elsewhere. You can carry on as you are (if you can), but distance yourself emotionally from the relationship.

What won't work is you constantly trying to build a better relationship with her. She isn't capable of better.
You could be brutally honest with her- 'don't be spiteful, mother!', 'you're being a negative Nelly again!', 'Gosh you're a sourpuss today'.
What would happen? Would she back off and be more polite, or just explode with rage?

Calling them out rarely works very well, so I am not surprised to read what you wrote. Sometimes it can cause a massive explosion. Has your mum said anything since the calling out or changed her behaviour in any way?

I am certainly not suggesting you abuse or take undue advantage of her reliance on you, but when you were a child the situation was reversed and you had no way to protect yourself or impose and enforce boundaries. Now you can, and without being horrid it is perfectly fine to declare certain subjects off limits. If she digs about your weight, for example, you tell her you don't want to discuss it. If she raises it again you threaten to leave, and if she carries on then you carry out the threat. Obviously not leaving in the middle of a vital task but you can always finish whatever it is in silence.

You might have to accept that you are never going to get the mother you want, though. Stopping unpleasantness is a good start. Getting her to start being nice or giving you some appreciation might be a step too far. Maybe I am unduly pessimistic, but don't lay yourself open to more hurt by hoping for too much too soon even if you are going to continue calling her out on unpleasantness.

You choose a partner who adds value to your life, not your whole family. Not read all the posts but OP I always felt that my own mother worried more about external appearances and what folk thought of us rather than being proud of us in our own right. I read about Childhood emotional neglect (CEN) and it helped a lot. Perhaps check out the book about it - Running on Empty by Jonice Webb. Good luck. It is most definitely not you!

Can you not hand over care to social services? You need to protect yourself from her toxic behaviour!

Stop being with her daily. Calling her out on her behaviour does not work; such people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

If you cannot manage her (and it is really not possible to manage someone as toxic as your mother) then inform Social Services you can no longer care for her. Why is it your job anyway to do this, has she told you or otherwise conditioned you to think it is?.

Op

you have a lot of power here - infact you have all of the power

you do not need to allow this woman into your life

you do not need to like this woman

nor do you need to let her belittle and humiliate you

what you need to do and sharpish if you want to be in her life is tackle her hatred head on

’oh I’m so worried about your weight’

you - please stop commenting on my weight. I’m a grown up and it’s my body.

or - please stop with the constant criticism and negativity, if it continues I might have to rethink coming round here as much as I do

you see this woman only does these things because you allow her to without consequence. For years she has used you as a verbal punchbag and now you’re on your knees and all tied up in her ways of thinking

what I find so sad is that you believe you are somehow a failure because you have not met her expectations. This woman is trying to live through you, she is trying to force or coerce you to be someone who she wants you to be. That is just stupid and ridiculous- you need to live your life for yourself not your mother

i cannot imagine after all you have said her ever approving of a female partner - I would not give her the chance to meet them and I would not discuss potential love interests with her

you should slowly retreat from her life as believe me she will not change as this is who she is

you clearly still see a lot of her despite the fact that you said you have had other threads on her which I know will have advised low or no contact

it is time for you to either accept that she will not change and that she is still damaging you emotionally even as an adult but now you have to take responsibility because you are allowing it to continue and so like I said you actually have all the power

the downside to all this is you’ll never have the desired mother/daughter relationship you so clearly crave but I’d rather no mother than your mother I’m afraid

good luck

I realized two things which have helped me to distance myself from my mother, who is very like yours, OP.

The first thing is that I cannot make her happy. No matter what I say, do or achieve, she will never be satisfied. I can't please her, so I might as well please myself. (As an aside, I worked for her for free for 10 years, because she convinced me that all sorts of disastrous things would happen if I didn't. I had no money for food and had to burn driftwood for heat, but it was made very clear to me that our relationship would end if I stopped. Then I heard her slagging me off and telling everyone how poor my work was (it really wasn't) and I stopped doing anything for her. No disaster ensued).

The second thing is that she doesn't want to be happy. Happiness makes her deeply uncomfortable, and if she sees it in others, she feels obliged to ruin it. She finds all her pleasure in misery. Other people's if possible, but her own if not.

It really doesn't matter why your mother is so nasty to you. It might not be her fault (although she still has free will) but it isn't yours either. You don't have to validate her behaviour by caring for her, she has just trained you to think that you do. I'm not suggesting that you abandon her, but you can make it clear that you are going to stop, and then do so.