Kids vs my needs

[Mrsrai]

I feel like our relationship has ended, no connection, no intimacy, terrible communication. We function as a family (2 primary aged children), but there's nothing really left between us. I constantly think of separating, it's driving me mad.

Are my needs greater than the children's? Should I stay for their benefit & stability?
Is it better for them to have a stable environment even though they're not seeing a loving relationship?

We've worked hard & built our life over 20 years, lovely home, settled in community. I wouldn't be able to keep house, also worried about managing financially. Is managing enough, when we're comfortable now? Rising costs worry me too.

I tried individual counselling briefly which turned into couples counselling but neither of us are very invested. Not sure the counsellor even thought we could reconnect.

He wants to stay together but doesn't do much to show that's the case. I do all the family thinking & he's like a passive participant, so would be quite content to continue as we are. I'm screaming inside.

How do you balance the needs of your children over your own selfish needs?

After 20 years, starting again & not knowing if I can manage is so scary. Causing so much upset & upheaval feels incredibly selfish.
Am I better off living like this and just doing more for myself, like going out with friends, getting a hobby (mum's suggestion!). But I just don't know if that's enough.

How do you know it’s the end and worth causing all the upset?

First post, so apologies for the jumble of thoughts.

I've posted on here about my childhood and my parents marriage so many times that regular posters must be sick to death of seeing my posts.

However, this is something that I feel very strongly about - do not stay thinking it is better for your children...it is the exact opposite, and they will not thank you for it in the future.

I knew from the age of 9 that my parent's marriage was not how it should be...there was no affection or love between them, and precious little shown to us. My father started working abroad when I was that age...and as my mother couldn't trust him to keep it in his pants - he'd been unfaithful to her since I was about 4 - she followed him around the world, disrupting our lives so many times, until I was about 14. She only stopped because my father was posted somewhere families could not follow (not military). During that whole time my father never stopped being unfaithful to her. My mother however put her marriage before her children.

He eventually left my mother for another woman when I was 21. Leaving all that aside...when my parents were living together and we were a supposedly 'stable' family, it didn't change the fundamental problem between them...they just didn't love each other. Their communication was non-existent as well, and to add to it all my father was very sexist and my mother did nothing to counteract that negativity. I believe now that my mother stayed because she liked the stay at home lifestyle and didn't want to have to give it up...she believed (and still does) that my father 'owed' her financial support for the rest of her life because she'd had his children.

I have two brothers, we are all in our 50s now. Out of the 3 of us, only my older brother is currently married...my younger brother has never been married or even had a long term relationship. None of us have had children. My older brother has told our mother that he has no positive or happy memories of our childhood. I'm nearly 54 and I've been married twice...I still find romantic relationships incredibly hard, because I didn't witness one growing up.

If you stay you are forcing your children to witness, and live, a lie.

I think it is well worth repeating @noirchatsdeux.

"A happy childhood is carried very lightly, an unhappy one is a load that never eases".

Thats a half remembered quote that I read somewhere that resonated with me.

I couldn’t agree more.
The ways to create that happiness is complex. Having a stable home with both us here is possible.
We’re doing couples counselling so I’m confident we could get to a mutual arrangement where we just tick along. With enough basic communication to function, no intimacy (it’s been years & I’m not looking for a new relationship so does that matter?), behave more like friends & parents. I would have to force his involvement by insisting he’s more present & contributing. He is lazy but there is also an issue where he doesn’t know how to engage. Counsellor picked up on it, but my issue now is he’s not trying to do the steps she suggested. He has always been like this, but I compensated & was happy to initiate conversations. Now I’m less tolerant & want him to make the effort to be present and contribute.
An small example of this would be, he wasn’t able to attend parents evenings due to being away. Absolutely fine, out of his control. But why not ask how they went? Appointments are in the family calendar so he can’t claim not to know. I’m fed up of spoon feeding him info, so haven’t bothered to feedback either. So it never gets mentioned. I bubble with irritation that he clearly doesn’t care. I imagine, (because I can’t be bothered to ask), is he just either forgot or knows I have it in hand so doesn’t need to ask. But that’s not good enough, I want him to want to know how his children are doing at school.

Anyway, if we did manage to tick along, of that wouldn’t get rid of the unrelenting gnawing feeling described. The constant feeling of this isn’t enough. Not having the chat and connection is so sad. I want to be able to talk about things, have some support, but I don’t think he knows how to do it, and I have given up leading on everything as it’s exhausting.

sorry, rambling now.

So much of what you post could be a description of my partner .The lack of engagement .I can put up with the leaving the entire child raising to me - much stress about not getting into local schools ,he was away when outcome of secondary application released .Didn't even ask .The lack of any emotional connection ,conversation is worse .
I think there's something missing in his emotional make up .But ..the attendant lack of self awareness and motivation is too much . You say I would have to force his involvement by insisting he’s more present & contributing ..but how does one do this without adding more resentment ? It's such hard work ,why is it our job to fix them ?
I guess in the end it comes down to love ,you'd be doing these things because you loved them .Which I guess implies a balance of attractive and negative aspects of character.

In my case ,I am to blame .I chose to be with my current partner because I'd been devastated by the end of a long term relationship which had become a marriage .I liked my current partner well enough and reasoned that we could grow and develop a perfectly adequate relationship .I didn't want ever again to feel the emotional bond that I had had with my ex .

It was a mistake ,it was a selfish ,stupid mistake which has made me miserable and I don't doubt has denied my partner the opportunity of making a more fulfilling relationship with someone else .

With enough basic communication to function, no intimacy (it’s been years & I’m not looking for a new relationship so does that matter?),

I think it does matter - intimacy isn’t just about sex, it’s about connection and care and closeness - living in a relationship without that is utterly soul destroying, the unspoken rejection wears you down. Not being in a relationship and so not having intimacy is different from being in a relationship without that.

Peridito,

re your comments
"It was a mistake ,it was a selfish ,stupid mistake which has made me miserable and I don't doubt has denied my partner the opportunity of making a more fulfilling relationship with someone else".

What about you here in all this, you bloody well matter as well. Be tired of being the last person who matters here. By being with this man (for what are really your own reasons) you're denying yourself the opportunity of making a more fulfilling relationship with someone else. I would think he is quite happy as he is with you doing all the donkey work but you feel differently and for good reason.

"It's such hard work ,why is it our job to fix them ?"

Relationships should not be such hard work honestly. Why did you make it your job?. It was never your task here to fix him but one you imposed on yourself all the same. What happened to you, how is it you became a fixer?. It needs addressing. An unhealthy wish to fix others is to get into relationships where the partner is seen as someone who needs fixing. One problem with this is that the other person may not want fixing and may not even see a need to be fixed. The other problem is that any relationship based on one person trying to fix the other is doomed to failure.

I am wondering also if you are confusing love here with codependency.
Codependency can occur in any type of relationship, including family, work, friendship, and also romantic, peer or community relationships. Codependency may also be characterized by denial of what is really happening, low self-esteem, and excessive compliance to abusers. People who are codependent often take on the role as a martyr. By constantly putting the needs of others before their own needs they get a sense that they are “needed.” Self sacrifice to the needs of others is never a good thing.

Oh Attila much truth in your post .

I don't like myself it's true and I think I do embrace the martyr role .Not because I want to be needed ,I really don't ,but to sort of build points to counter the things I don't like about myself .Which is a hiding to nothing I know ,not least because being a martyr is no good for the martyr or the person on the receiving end .!

But as for the fixing yes the other person may not want fixing and may not even see a need to be fixed I think my partner is quite happy .I think I was inaccurate in my previous post ,the fixing was more with regard to the relationship than to him as a person. Though of course they must be intertwined .

And ...maybe it was in regard to myself I didn't want to have to put any work into changing myself and felt he should be the one to change .

But at the end of the day ,I don't love him ,I never have .And I've never had the sense that he loved me .I thought this would be workable and I think in the main it is .More for him than me ,though could be wrong .

@Mrsrai Anyway, if we did manage to tick along, of that wouldn’t get rid of the unrelenting gnawing feeling described. The constant feeling of this isn’t enough. Not having the chat and connection is so sad. I want to be able to talk about things, have some support, but I don’t think he knows how to do it, and I have given up leading on everything as it’s exhausting

This is so powerful and IMO insightful .And I could have written exactly this
I want to be able to talk about things, have some support, but I don’t think he knows how to do it, and I have given up leading on everything as it’s exhausting

I ticked along (+ some bumps in the road where I was practically an alcoholic)but now I can't shake the dislike of it all being a sham .It makes me feel a coward and worthless .So I do think you need to part ways .

He just wants a quiet life where he’s not challenged or asked to make an effort. It’s always on his terms. But we are both poor at communicating. He can’t, and I can’t be bothered anymore.

This sums up my whole relationship. No words OP, sorry, But I totally get you.

I think the core of all of this is the often unacknowledged pure selfishness of the men involved.

They simply cannot be arsed.

Being interested and involved, giving a shit, involves effort.

They don't want to be bothered.

It begins very very early in the relationship, with very low expectations from the woman.

They drive the relationship from the beginning and when children arrive so it continues on.

They hope the selfish, self absorbed waster is going to morph into someone he has never shown the slightest evidence of being.

Someone whom he has shown the slightest inclination of being.

Raising children and having a family is hard relentless work.

They have zero interest and are utterly avoidant.

They do the absolute least they can get away with.

They use hobbies, work, strategic incompetence, anything, to avoid contributing to family life.

They certainly don't really love their wives or children, but family life and the comforts suit them, until it doesn't.

Affairs are an option for some or divorce happens when their wives finally wake up to just how selfish and truly self absorbed these men are.

If the women have career's they exit often more quickly.

These men are shit husbands and shit fathers and they really don't care.

The ones that don't physically and verbally abuse their wives get to coast along, longer, but they are still wasters, shit husbands and shit fathers.

OP, your husband is NO prize, he really isn't.
He's just another selfish man who has moved on when it suited him.

I really hope you divorce him and never look back.

I just want a relaxed happy home with my children. I’m not thinking of future relationships, it’s about being able to breathe.
I think we could function as a family, where he comes & goes with work, joins in when he wants, puts the bins out & mows the lawn. But the resentment creeps in and it’s harder and harder not to say the little cutting remarks. And it’s this the children must pick up on. He just wants a quiet life where he’s not challenged or asked to make an effort. It’s always on his terms. But we are both poor at communicating. He can’t, and I can’t be bothered anymore.

@Mrsrai your comment about the bins made me smile sadly in recognition. My dh too comes and goes as he pleases. He always has done, but recently he's taken to sending a one word text when he's already on his way to wherever he's going, without saying anything to me or even the kids prior to him going. If it was for work, it wouldn't bother me as much, but it's all for galavanting to music events. What if I did that?? Just upped and left for two days for him to hold the fort and deal with everything I deal with every single day??? He just doesn't see that. So on Monday morning, I realised he'd gone when I went out to the car and saw that he'd put the bin out (for Wednesday collection...) as if he's showing me he's done a good job. F* off. It's all bloody intolerable (although I tolerate it, foolishly, kindly admonished by the wise @AttilaTheMeerkat regularly!) and I too am only staying 'for the kids.' I'm utterly aware this is the wrong way to look at it, but like you OP, the thought of gambling my kids' happiness is overwhelming and it makes me back down every time. From what you've described, you're sick of accommodating his need to have his family lifestyle (the pretence of it anyway) without making anything like the effort you have done for all these years. Me and you need to be brave and take the leap. It will be horrible, stressful, tiring, everything you worry about. But that's temporary, and once you're on the other side, it will all be so much better. Both me and you have to decide whether to struggle on, knowing it won't change, and more likely get worse, or just jump. We both know the answer here. Good luck OP x

I really feel for you. This thread is at the same time sad and inspiring as you are on a journey to try to find a better situation for yourself.

I am now late fifties. Ten years odd since I left my ex husband. What a journey that was - and I remember being stuck for years in the place where really all I could see was keeping things going and getting the tea on the table for my daughter.

I don't regret leaving for one second - although the practical side of it was unbearable difficult at times.

Right now - I am making another transition. DD the last year of sixth form and launching her to Uni - with all the practical and emotional things that entails. It is an exciting journey though - as well as at times a really stressful one - I've had to think very hard about what I would like the next decade or so of my life to look like. I'm also staring a house move in the face - which is hard too - but I hope will be an improvement.

I'm conscious that potentially I hope I will live until my nineties.

You are seventy. I totally get what you are saying about being afraid and stamina and so on. However I hope you will bear the following in mind:

If I compare life with my ex husband with now - no matter how much work it is raising a teenager and running a household by myself - it is MASSIVELY less work than it ever was with my ex husband.

Reason being exactly what you have described. I realised much later that he would deliberately be uncooperative, uncaring, not help with all sorts of things and that these were his deliberate actions to make life more difficult for me.
This was abusive - and when I left this came to the surface more - also there had been no caring or physical intimacy for years. I remember quite clearly that even a hug stopped when my daughter was born. This is an awful way to live.

There is no doubt whatsoever that leaving may be scary. But you will also find in the next life transition more than a few surprises - the kindness of strangers, new friends, new interests, new freedom.

Some people are afraid to 'be alone' in the later stages of their life. Personally I would choose 'being alone' in a single person household over 'being alone' in a relationship where the other person doesn't care about me.

Sometimes when I do go out - it can appear as if the whole world is in coupledom - the couples I see out and about seemingly in retirement and so on.

If you look more closely though - you can see couples sitting at restaurant tables with absolutely nothing to say to each other, staring at their mobile phones etc.

I would like to think that in the next few decades of my life I find greater meaning than that. I really hope you find your way with this one.

There is also the thing that coupledom and marriage does not last for ever either. There are plenty of widowed people out there. Plenty of people like me who are embarking on a next phase of life - after the kids leave home.

I can't pretend it is not scary - it definitely at times IS scary. But generally when I'm feeling as if the whole project of my life is very daunting I switch the radio on, chat to my daughter, get myself out, make a list - of things to do and in the background I'm so grateful I never have to argue with another person who is supposed to be an adult male - about the housework that needs doing.

Sure I have blips with my daughter, but to me that is different as she is only sixteen and still learning.

Adult men should know better.

And you deserve better than this OP.

OP when you say he’s passive do you mean from a big stuff point of view or from a daily mundane playing with the kids and helping out?

Wow it’s all rather depressing isn’t it.
I’m mid forties, good job, work flexibility for children, strong willed yet somehow wobbling about all this.
His view is we each contribute to the relationship in different ways and if one person is doing something it frees up the other to do something else. This is his answer to being passive. Which I can’t argue the logic of this statement, but that doesn’t mean discussion & chat isn’t needed too. Coming together and approaching things as a team.
He acknowledges I do the bulk of the house & kids stuff, but he sorts bills & finances. I do work & contribute though too.
For me it’s about the loss of connection. We’re not a partnership in any sense, so my turmoil was whether I could live like this for the kids. To keep them in their home & be unaffected. The answer is I can’t. Another night of stressing over it & I need to make a decision & take action.

I also wanted to add that my father tried to dump myself, my two brothers and my mother back in our home country when I was 11. He'd even gone as far as arranging new accommodation just for himself. His plan was rumbled by my mother at the last minute...she still stayed with him. He left when I was 21...exactly 6 months after my younger brother turned 18.

Everything @billy1966 has said above is so true. My father never wanted children in the first place, he only married my mother because she got pregnant - less than 6 months after they met - with my older brother. This was back in the late 60s, my mother is Catholic, he was essentially forced into it. My mother then found out he'd lied to her about his age...she thought they were both 23, my father was actually only 18. However my mother had also lied about not being able to have children...so their whole marriage was based on two massive lies.

My mother deluded herself into thinking she could 'force' my father into being a good father, a good husband. It didn't work because those were things that he had never wanted in the first place.

@Mrsrai totally identify with you. String will here too, but was weakened so much my self doubt and guilt and still am actually. I was curious about the passive comment. But it sounds the same as me. Husband is practical but emotional teamwork or approach to life isn’t there. Life is a series of jobs and activities, almost robotic. Conversation just surface level. Couldn’t figure anything out and could get anything out of him either, so have been in an echo chamber for a good few years, enough to make you feel crazy sometimes. I yearn to wake up without this burden. As much as our break out is going against every bone in my body, I am going through with it. I cannot live wondering and thinking and being so occupied in my mind that I am not there for my kids as much as I should be. Cause I know that is how I would be if I stayed, that out resigned. He’s a good man my husband but had his own issues, I guess we are either end of a spectrum. I thought this was complementary but it’s not it turns out. We sound like we’re in a similar position and similar enough people.

Sorry for all the typos.

His view is we each contribute to the relationship in different ways and if one person is doing something it frees up the other to do something else.

Theres a degree of truth in that however, if your contribution is planning, looking ahead, keeping everything ticking over and his is basically letting you get on with it, that’s not a relationship. What is he freed up to do that actively helps and supports the family, what is he freed up to do that helps you?