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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Covert Narcissism

76 replies

freshpatchouli · 29/05/2022 20:55

Has anybody had any experience of this very scary and damaging personality disorder please?

OP posts:
chirpychirpycheepcheepy · 30/05/2022 20:25

I had silent treatment from my pair.

If I ever DARED to stand up for myself I'd be ghosted for as long as it took me to crumble and initiate contact again.

FayeFife · 30/05/2022 20:27

Yes silent treatment. Very cruel.

Amethyst1974 · 30/05/2022 20:42

FayeFife · 30/05/2022 20:21

To add: to the unassimilated…

Is shy, humble, unassuming.

This. This is what is so dangerous because they are humble shy and unassuming and you end up getting sucked in. They are the worst kind of narc in my opinion because once you realise what they are you’re totally enmeshed

Fuckoffeverything · 30/05/2022 20:52

DatingDinosaur · 29/05/2022 21:34

I’ll list:

Aloof
Closed book
Charming/gentleman to a fault
Unfathomable facial expressions / silent scrutiny
Condescending / belittling / persuasive
Seemingly shy
Body language, words and actions don’t match
Some sort of weird sexual magnetism (Narc With A Spark)
My intuition telling me not to “go there”

This is it, perfectly put! It describes someone in my family exactly. A right abusive tosspot who tiptoes around like he's the fairy godmother bestowing kindnesses to those who're less close to him but behaving like an utter cunt behind closed doors.

Fuckoffeverything · 30/05/2022 20:54

Also meant to add he's a woman magnet bizarrely. There's a never ending stream of desperate co-dependant women to snuggle up to him & adore him.

Somatronic · 30/05/2022 21:06

Congratulations at getting out OP. I can't imagine how difficult your life with him has been. I hope that you can get lots of support to recover.

One side of my family has a strong grandiose narcissistic streak, so I'm very familiar with that breed, unfortunately.

My friend married a covert narcissist and none of us realised what he was really like until he abandoned her and their children out of the blue during lockdown. What she told us about him afterwards was very shocking. What's even more shocking is that some of our friends don't believe her, and have remained friends with the narcissist. It's very upsetting but I guess it shows how good he is at playing the victim and manipulation.

MakingProgress2022 · 30/05/2022 21:44

I spent 15 years married to one. Only realised what it was after I’d left.
Freshpatchouli’s list is perfect. Would only add, never to blame - he was always the innocent party.

it’s the reason they break you - you constantly question yourself, second guess yourself, feel constantly guilty and on edge without knowing why, the gaslighting.

I am a professional woman with a successful career. But I came close to madness near the end. If I had stayed, I would have been institutionalised I am sure.

this is my third year out and I am now beginning to recover. I recommend Debbie Mirza’s book on covert narcissists and loads of therapy. I only got through the first year out with those things.

PloppyMouth · 30/05/2022 22:30

The amateur psychology and mislabelling is hilarious and entertaining in equal measure.

freshpatchouli · 30/05/2022 22:33

Sorry to hear that some of you have experienced this horror.

I'll look that book up Makingprogress2022.
Thanks very much and hope you're okay.

The way he's just been able to detach when the going got tough for him has been a real wow moment in my mind. And then it snowballs and I look back at other things and realise that he didn't care for a long long time (if ever really) and was just using me. I can really see how he was just taking what he needed since I met him and it's always been ALL ABOUT HIM. What a bloody idiot I am!

Keep saying it, but it's very scary stuff.

OP posts:
Dominuse · 30/05/2022 22:45

My father is one and it’s ruined my life. Nothing anyone does including is good enough. When I stood up to him at 47 in front of my children - he cut me off and hasn’t spoken to me since or my children.

Dominuse · 30/05/2022 22:45

Ps I wasn’t and hadn’t ever been dependent on him - I mean he cut me off as a daughter

chirpychirpycheepcheepy · 30/05/2022 22:46

PloppyMouth · 30/05/2022 22:30

The amateur psychology and mislabelling is hilarious and entertaining in equal measure.

Off you fuck then, ploppymouth. I can't imagine what drew someone like you to the thread.

EarthSight · 30/05/2022 23:00

@chirpychirpycheepcheepy XD

I liked the criticism but then no attempt to show their degree or Masters in the subject or to enlighten all the posters. Just a blanket 'shhhhh'.

chirpychirpycheepcheepy · 30/05/2022 23:04

EarthSight · 30/05/2022 23:00

@chirpychirpycheepcheepy XD

I liked the criticism but then no attempt to show their degree or Masters in the subject or to enlighten all the posters. Just a blanket 'shhhhh'.

I do have a Masters in the subject 😂

letmeeatcrisps · 30/05/2022 23:10

the father of my children is a narc. Always so cold and critical, absolutely remorseless when he has done wrong. Extremely negative about the qualities other people admire in me. a pathological liar. Hides behind religion/philosophy to avoid engaging with difficult conversations.
a male family member is the same. They have identical “arguing styles”. Always deflecting, sending all conversations down these twisty turny rabbit holes where everyone else is stupid / evil and they are always the victim

Melania tonia evans has a great book and online programme about it. I am reading her book now and it has been very Illuminating

i was with a narc for ten years and the scariest thing is worrying that I am one too. His behaviour normalised it so much I worry I don’t. Know what is right anymore

MrsEthelMorningtonCrescent · 31/05/2022 00:26

Gosh yes, this rings a bell. Some do not have all those characteristics or not as you'd notice, some narcissists can be rather subtle (within being covert I mean) IME. Sorry to hear that this person has caused so much damage that you had to go to A&E. I hope you got or will soon get some help. I found counselling (the right sort of counselling) to be helpful for me to unscramble my head somewhat. Be very kind and nurturing of yourself. You are not alone and you can get through and out.

MrsEthelMorningtonCrescent · 31/05/2022 00:29

To the PP who was worried she is one, one thing that helps me time and again is this: if you are constantly wondering and checking whether you have this trait, you very likely don't (or not to any great degree). If you (or they) do, then you (they) won't be wondering it, or worrying about it if they have some awareness, and will likely be denying it to you regularly if you make the mistake of raising it (which doesn't tend to be very effective). In all likelihood it is this trait of the narcissist claiming that the other has said or done or exhibitied the exact traits that they themselves have, that scrambles your brain and makes you think you might be. They will of course deny doing this.

WhereDidTheSunGoToday · 31/05/2022 08:13

My mother.

I'm not a fan if armchair diagnoses and, as everyone knows, these people rarely get diagnosed because of their unwillingness to accept they might he part of the problem.

But I my friend gave an account of her to a psychiatrist colleague who who described her as both 'textbook' and 'unremarkable' and said that, whilst my experience was undoubtedly shocking, what he'd heard of her wasn't.

The things my mother did during the time I knew her included making false allegations to the police about violence from me towards her; trying to get me sectioned and trying to get social services involved with my children. All so she could convince people she was my victim (it started when I was about 9). She repeatedly sabotaged me and then would tell people it was my poor mental health that had caused it and then tell everyone that she was swooping in to rescue me. She didn't do anything and the fact I remained in the shitty position she'd put me in was attributed to the fact I was beyond help and her efforts were testament to what a good parent she was and how much she'd suffered at my hands.

She would tell people in front of us things I had done and things she'd done to help support me. I'd known my ex husband since my teens so he knew the truth because he'd experienced it too. We just stood there open mouthed the first time. There was little point challenging her because she'd either a) double down and claim it was true even when you had physical proof or b) deny having ever said it.

She reframed things that had happened as something else and the lies she would tell about me have complete destroyed my relationship with extended family and people I was close to growing up.

we couldn't even challenge it because a) why would she be lying/lie about that? b) any attempt on my part to defend myself/give the truth just played into her narrative that I was the problem - see, all the things I've done for her and see how she denies it? As my husband said, "She'd have to be off her fucking rocker to be lying about some of the things she says about you." Except she was lying. And, "You can't defend yourself because it makes you sound off your rocker to accuse your mum of such lies or call her out in public."

I used to argue back and defend myself as a child but all I'd hear was, "See? See what I have to put up with from her?" and her friends would offer her sympathy and I'd sit there bewildered because none of it was true. But they believed her because who would say such awful things about their own child unless it was true.

In the end, it was her behaviour that brought the police and social services to our door and we were told they'd be seeking removal of the children of we maintained contact with her. It finally gave us the courage to go NC and we haven't seen her in over 10 years.

I suppose it gave her the last laugh though and the final proof that I was as mentally deranged as she'd spent a lifetime telling people I was. After all, what sort of woman would require so many years of help and support from her own mother and then cut her off...

freshpatchouli · 31/05/2022 09:48

'Twisty turny rabbit holes' describes the daily conversations so well! Mental torture. Would always leave me so confused.

OP posts:
greenhebeaww · 31/05/2022 10:06

They do seem like monsters to neuro-typical people but let's not forget that there are deep-routed issues which cause these personality disorders. The worst thing is that it is incredibly difficult for a person to see that they have NPD. If they can at least accept the possibility then perhaps they can make some progress via therapy. But it would take a very long time to address and manage all the issues, as they are so deep-rooted in early childhood development.

One of many facets to NPD is that the person has cripplingly low self-esteem (but the often don't even know it!) so they will have developed automatic mechanisms in an attempt to 'hide' this.

Without even knowing it, a narcissist may often seek out validation from others, usually through gaining the attention of others via flirting, sexual conquests, cheating on their partner - one-upmanship, etc.

If a narcissist manages to remain in a long-standing relationship, the chances are their partner will be the type of person who would be described as 'caring', 'easy-going', 'empathetic'. A narcissist will usually seek out a partner that has qualities commonly associated with a mother. They will seek those qualities automatically, without knowing that they are choosing their partner based on those traits.

Is that you, OP?

WhereDidTheSunGoToday · 31/05/2022 10:37

Without even knowing it, a narcissist may often seek out validation from others, usually through gaining the attention of others via flirting, sexual conquests, cheating on their partner - one-upmanship, etc.

That was my mother to a T.

When I was 26, she and I went out somewhere and a young lad a similar age and style of dress to me did a double take. My mother said, "Ooh l, did you see him look at me?" It was the first time I'd ever really been convinced that someone was looking at me and just said, "Did it not even occur to you that he might have been looking at me?" She looked at me in genuine confusion and said, "You? Why would he have been looking at you?"

She flirted with every man. She even tried it with my boyfriends - she would walk around the house in a state of partial undress when they were around and draw attention to her body by comments she made.

She used to ask one of her boyfriends which of us he thought had better breasts - I was 21 and she was mid 40s at the time. And she asked in a flirty way- she clearly expected the answer to be her. Constant competition and just fucking weird.

letmeeatcrisps · 31/05/2022 12:32

oh my goodness PP your mother sounds awful.. sorry you’ve had to deal with that your whole life.

that Debbie Mirza book is great so far, here’s a passage that made me feel seen and lightened the burden a little. Im in the process of leaving a narc, and I’m starting to feel sorry for him, like I should go back :( reminding myself that his behaviour is textbook narcissist helps.

“Here is the truth. If you have lived with a covert narcissist, you have been held down for a long time. You have experienced the illusion of love, not the real thing. You have been lied to, manipulated, and controlled. You have not been heard or valued. You were devalued and brutally discarded by someone who said they cared about you, but in fact only cared about themselves. You have experienced a crazy-making relationship that is difficult to describe. Your self-confidence, your zest for life, your adventurous spirit, the light inside you has slowly dimmed; there is part of you that may not want to be here anymore but is scared to say that out loud or to anyone else… Here is the good news. You have begun a journey that will bring you to
the truth you are seeking, the truth of what you have been through, and the realization of how stunning and valuable you actually are. With time, you will have clarity and feel strength and freedom that may be hard to comprehend right now, but trust me it’s possible. ”

Excerpt From: Debbie Mirza. “The Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist”.

one thing I will say. I can feel the part of me that wants to be loved, that was addicted to the emotional rollercoaster of being with a narc, getting sustenance from these books. I almost don’t trust the writers of these books because they are telling me everything I want to hear, and that was the whole reason I got sucked in initially

so I will again recommend the Melania tonia evans book/blog because she is great about rebuilding yourself, not necessarily dwelling on proving a narc is a narc

I wish you all the very best in recovering your self esteem and self trust. Hopefully we can keep this thread active and support each other xx

PloppyMouth · 31/05/2022 15:31

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chirpychirpycheepcheepy · 31/05/2022 18:33

WhereDidTheSunGoToday · 31/05/2022 10:37

Without even knowing it, a narcissist may often seek out validation from others, usually through gaining the attention of others via flirting, sexual conquests, cheating on their partner - one-upmanship, etc.

That was my mother to a T.

When I was 26, she and I went out somewhere and a young lad a similar age and style of dress to me did a double take. My mother said, "Ooh l, did you see him look at me?" It was the first time I'd ever really been convinced that someone was looking at me and just said, "Did it not even occur to you that he might have been looking at me?" She looked at me in genuine confusion and said, "You? Why would he have been looking at you?"

She flirted with every man. She even tried it with my boyfriends - she would walk around the house in a state of partial undress when they were around and draw attention to her body by comments she made.

She used to ask one of her boyfriends which of us he thought had better breasts - I was 21 and she was mid 40s at the time. And she asked in a flirty way- she clearly expected the answer to be her. Constant competition and just fucking weird.

Your mother sounds really unwell, I'm so sorry.

chirpychirpycheepcheepy · 31/05/2022 18:34

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Yes, you lack empathy, that much is clear. No wonder this thread was like a batcall to you, you probably recognise yourself in these stories.