My marriage is in a bad place

[Howdiditgetsobad]

I’m not quite sure how DH and I have ended up
in such a bad place, and worse still I’m not really sure how we fix it. There’s so little love between us and I’m scared it won’t come back.

We have 2 DC, the youngest is 6 months and has been a terrible sleeper, so it’s fair to say we’re exhausted and that’s really not helping. Our eldest is 4 and was also terrible sleeper. It’s since having kids that our relationship has really fallen apart.

We had a rough ride to parenthood - years of infertility and recurrent miscarriage. I sometimes found DH lacking in emotion and empathy during this period but on the whole we remained very close, loving and supportive. When I finally got pregnant and stayed pregnant, things were great although I also carried a lot of trauma that I didn’t really admit to (panic attacks, nightmares about the baby, anxiety about stillbirth causing endless intrusive thoughts that my baby had died etc.) then we had our daughter and suddenly things changed. I think on reflection I had PND, as I felt so awful for a long time, angry, resentful of my husband, like I’d made a mistake having a baby and I’d ruined my life. It’s only on having my second that I realise how bad I was first time around. I also felt so much guilt for feeling the way I did. Essentially I have felt in almost constant emotional inner turmoil since having kids. I’m finally seeking help with this and trying to find some independent support.

With all this going on, I fully admit I’ve not been easy to live with. I’ve been so lost in my own head. At times, all I’ve really wanted is for DH to look after me a bit too but I have felt that he’s not really been there for me. I lost a baby at 17 weeks in 2020, had to go alone to deliver the baby and then was home and looking after our child and packing for our holiday the next day. No time to heal or grieve. Similarly in the post natal period I felt that he should have made it his priority to look after me so that I could look after the baby but instead I felt like I had to struggle through. With no real support from either of our parents, things have often felt tough and lonely.

We both come from dysfunctional families ourselves. My dad had a decade long affair, detaching himself without actually leaving and my mum had mental health issues. DH family dynamic has always been negative and toxic between his parents and at least one of his siblings. I feel that it’s important that we reflect and learn from these experiences but DH would rather shut it down. He won’t read any books related to parenting yet has only terrible role models that he leaned from.

So now we find ourselves in a toxic mess. I’m angry with him and he’s angry with me. I can’t say anything to him without it being perceived as a criticism and in truth, sometimes it is. I’m annoyed that he won’t educate himself on parenting in any way, or budge from his views. If I suggest something, he’ll often shut me down by aggressively ask for the ‘evidence’ which of course I don’t always have, or at least not at my fingertips.

We share a lot of the parenting and household stuff 50/50 but I still feel as though I’m expected to be the household manager whilst simultaneously being resented in this role. It’ll always be because I’m apparently the difficult or fussy one too. Just an example from yesterday of the type of conversation we might have:
DH: you tell me how you want me to pack the car
Me: just make sure the bag with the drinks and snacks is accessible - put it in the back by baby’s seat

Then get to the car and the snacks are not accessible. I point this out and am told that I pointed to another bag. I get angry because I think for fuck’s sake, think about it yourself and realize that a four year old might need her drink on a two hour drive and the bag with all this sort of practical stuff is better accessible than in the boot. Why defer the responsibility to me and then not even listen to what I say?!
Then Dd was travel sick, poor love threw up at a service station. We go in and she asks for a gingerbread bunny at costa. I wouldn’t normally say yes for random requests but she’s just been sick and ginger biscuits are good for nausea. DH vehemently disagrees, says he’s never heard this about ginger biscuits and that she should have a fruit smoothie instead, which I think is a bad idea due to it being acidic. So we fall out over this as I’m always letting her have treats etc. I’m relaxed about occasional treats as I don’t believe in overtly restricting food but I also make sure that healthy food is offered and eaten! And so it goes on..,,

What next? I want to fix our marriage but it feels so very broken. I never thought this would happen to us.

This sounds like a difficult, complex and multi-factorial problem, to which there won’t be an easy solution. I think the only hope you have of sorting out the toxic way you are both communicating and the background family problems is to go to couples therapy together. Although getting him to agree to go sounds like it might be an issue. Good luck!

I wish you could talk to him the way you did here. It is complex and this is really what marriage is. Working through it. Do you have any time for each other? Are you still initiate? I agree with couples counseling, but think you also need to find good in each other
If you can. The early years are hard under the best of circumstances and you have a lot going on.

Well, you are right about the ginger biscuits being better than a fruit smoothie.

It is hard and some complexity, but a fundamental is you are both knackered with two kids not sleeping. Sometimes it is bad luck, that's how they are, but more often it is about you both and looking at how you are managing it. We had this early on and my DH read up on issues and we ended up imposing a rigid timetable/routine. Basically they got up, ate, napped, bathed, fed and bed at the same time. No reading in the bedroom. It was seen as sleep venue.

First couple of nights lots of crying and tears. Checked if ok etc and on third day slept through. Carried on like that ever since. However, we were so in fear of returning to no sleep, we kept up the routine for a long time but gradually became less rigid.....it was painful but extremely effective

Pick your battles. I wouldn’t have got involved in either one you mentioned.
Also your DH will have thought about how he wants to be a dad and parent his kids. He’s allowed to parent them the way he likes and you can’t control this.
Your attitude seems to come from a place of “I know best” and I think that lack of respect you have for each other is poison for a marriage.

Divorce him, he'll never change.

Sorry to read what's happened to your marriage. There is research that couples with young children are (temporarily) the most unhappy of all ages of adults. It's no surprise with the level of exhaustion and trauma you have been through, that your relational legacies from childhood are sabotaging how you communicate now, whereas neither of you were triggered before kids so had lots of patience and compassionate to give.

My suggestion is you talk to him on a good day about how much you want to work towards a happier marriage where you are partners again. Then see if he is open to marriage counselling. I'd be as vulnerable as you can stand to be, despite potentially wanting to protect yourself if he is quite defensive, otherwise the conversation will become an argument. I would try to get through to him be being loving and coming from a place of wanting better times ahead (ie keep is positive) rather than listing all the problems in your marriage.

So many typos sorry!

You need to calm down a bit. Just because someone wasn’t patented properly themselves, doesn’t mean they only become good parents themselves by reading some stupid books.

I think you need to sort yourself and your problems out first before trying to concentrate on someone else.

Why were you going on a two hour drive? Unless an emergency that needs to stop. Young kids, sleep deprived, arguing, no driving should be happening unless an emergency. You need a life overhaul and only doing things like big journeys at Xmas! It’s unneeded pressure. Weekends should be split for now. You get one lunchtime lie in then he does. You both go to the gym for a weekend afternoon etc . No forced family activities. Drop it all. Me time takes priority and lie ins. Until they are both at school and not being car sick etc. everything’s a phase

Thank you all for taking the time to reply.

@needingpeace, you may be right but it is hard for life to stand still entirely. We would both feel very isolated (and indeed did so during covid) if we did not take trips to do the things like see friends and visit the sea/countryside.
We do need to get better at time for individual self care. Baby is breastfed and won’t take a bottle. Four year old very much wants to be with me all the time, partly as a response to the new sibling. These are absolutely things we need to work on. I find the relentless demands on me can cause me to feel very short tempered and overwhelmed.

The car sickness had never happened before so we were not prepared. In future we will have an emergency pack for dealing with it and sickness bands for travel. If it continues then absolutely I wouldn’t put DD through the misery of long journeys until we’ve sorted it.

@HeDidWhattt not all books are stupid. Dismissing them like that won’t help anyone. I think there’s some really great information out there that can help with the tough job of parenting.

I absolutely do need to sort myself out and I’m working on it. There’s been a lot to deal with recently and I’ve realized I’ve reached my capacity to cope without it fundamentally impacting my parenting and relationships.

For clarity, I’m not saying my DH can’t be a good parent, as actually I think he absolutely can be but that it needs to be worked at. He is really a good man - kind and gentle, very fair, a feminist who is an excellent role model around the house. He has the energy and enthusiasm to play always. It’s just that he also struggles with empathy, can be dismissive of feelings and doesn’t really show much emotion himself. He uses threats and wants to use punishments like no TV to influence behaviour whereas I would
prefer that we explore a different approach.

@WTF475878237NC I think you have summed up perfectly what we need to do and where to start, thank you. One of the things that’s really impacted DH recently is his parents separation in their 70s. It’s really toxic. Siblings have taken sides and it seems to have made everyone more unhappy.

@Derelicthome I don’t think I know best, but I do know that out of the two of us I am the only one who is trying to educate themselves.

I work in a complex field, and to gain a better understanding I did a masters. DH is a professional in an area that requires years of additional study and training. I see parenting as being worth the same sort of investment in learning.

There must be something nearer than 2 hours away! No parks? Just a walk?

Two hours with such young children is added pressure you don't need = packing for it, getting up to go when you're knackered anyway, getting there, being there and coming home again?
Madness. Even if it's the same place repeatedly, find something nearer

Give yourselves, time and rest. Then you might be in a better place to communicate.
And the fruit drink after sickness? Mad!!

Sounds incredibly tough. I also had PND with our first, our relationship was on the rocks. We went to couples counselling (he was furious at first with this idea, but I basically said 'I don't want to go either but have you got a better idea?' He didn't.)

That absolutely saved us! Found our counsellor through Relate, she was AMAZING and even from the first session he admitted it helped.

We've gone on to have 2 more kids and our relationship is in a really good place now, 10 years later, despite more life stresses on top.

P.s. I think @WTF475878237NC has a much better tactic than mine re. Couples counselling!

The travel is a red herring here - the big problem aside from young kids/no sleep is that you have a man who won't learn about parenting and change when things aren't working. For those of you on here saying he should be allowed to parent how he likes and that the books are 'stupid' - give your heads a wobble. There's so much evidence based learning around how to be the best parent you can that it's stupid not to try to take some of that on board when things aren't right. My husband was like this too - he was raised very authoritarian and his take on it was 'if it was what his parents did, it was right'. Only it really, really wasn't. When 'parenting how he likes' becomes damaging, it needs to stop.

There may be a way back for you, but only if you both engage in couples' counselling to improve your communication.

I completely emphasise with how frustrating it is. Like you I was interested in reading parenting books. My DH might listen to a particular paragraph that I read out loud at best but absolutely has no investment in learning about parenting.
But he doesn’t have to read up or change his parenting approach, it’s important he gets to carve out the kind of relationship he wants with his kids. He is an equal parent and gets to do things his way even if all the parenting experts disagree with him.
My DH gives out ridiculous threats that he has no intention of following through on such as “you won’t be able to come with us to visit Grandma and Grandad”. It doesn’t even bother me now, actually it makes me smile and I’m glad he’s picking them up on whatever misbehaviour it is. Most things just aren’t worth the argument.

All the best OP. I hope you can get yourselves back on track.

To all those who have suggested couples counseling, I think that it would be a good idea for us. I will talk to him. I do see the good in him, but our relationship is not good. I also see in both of us things that need to change. I’m not sure he would admit this about himself.

Yes, the early years are hard. I wanted children so badly and it took us years. One of my biggest issues was the horror and guilt at how little I enjoyed my DD when she was born. Amidst the colic and sleep deprivation it was really tough and I did not dare communicate it to anyone because I felt enormous pressure to ‘enjoy every minute’ and felt like a failure because I did not. The pressure with DS is so much less and although I’m still exhausted, I’m more contented with motherhood in all it’s less than ideal glory.

I agree with you @pointythings and I get frustrated with the expectation that I have to pitch an approach and defend it when really the information is out there and accessible.

Kindly i think you need to back off a little. From your examples I don't see any major issues with your dh parenting. As parents we don't always make the best choices but as long as its not dangerous or abusive then really its life. I absolutely agree we need to try be the best patents we can be but who is to say the author of the books you choose are right. There is so much conflicting advice out there.
You are not in the sane parenting page on all aspects but you are not polls apart either. Back off on this.

I do think uts a communication thing and it can be saved but I have to admit if my dh was badgering me about reading this book and parenting in this way id be reluctant to engage and I don't think my communication would be at its best.

I'm not blaming you but I think in all honesty you are missing the issues in your marriage to an extent and have grabbed on to something that to me isn't the actual problem.

Sorry for the typos

OP, you have had a really tough time. I'm really sorry to read about your recurrent miscarriages and the loss of your baby at 17 weeks- that must have been incredibly hard.

Your different parenting styles remind me of me and my DH. We both had quite strict, medium-dysfunctional upbringings. My response has been to read every book under the sun in the hope of doing better, while his has been to read nothing. I'm the softer one, he's the authoritarian; I'm the analyser, he just gets on with it.

What's emerged over the years is actually that having different styles is fine: the kids are quite capable of understanding that we are different people with different approaches. And they have developed their own relationships with their father in a way which is completely unmediated by me, and not how I would have done it, and that's brilliant. I think as a mum, especially if you have anxious tendencies, it's really tempting to feel that you have to manage everything and that includes managing other people's relationships, and it's doomed to fail (this was my experience anyway)- better to let go and let them find their own way (this is assuming that you are just talking about different styles and don't mean that you think he is abusive).

The specific instances you mention- the bag and the gingerbread man- just sound like normal irritations and a typical part of life with small children. Not something to dwell on.

I do wonder whether you're still a bit anxious and that this is manifesting in trying to manage everything a bit too much. Have you thought about counselling (for yourself, not couples)? I don't mean by this to imply the fault is all on your side because that's not the case- just that it might be useful to have someone to talk to about your feelings without having to worry about your husband's reaction, and to be able to talk about your anxiety during pregnancy and your losses.

It sounds as if you're a great mum. Hang on in there x

He is really a good man - kind and gentle, very fair, a feminist who is an excellent role model around the house.

Then why is he asking you how to do something as simple as packing a car, then doing it badly, then blaming you for his bad work?

I'm not trying to catch you out, I just think that things are maybe a little worse than you're trying to think they are.

Why did you have to go alone to deliver the baby you lost? I'm so sorry that happened.

I don't think that harsh and punitive parenting vs gentler is a simple matter of differing philosophies, I think it's a matter of damage being inflicted vs less damage. You don't have to have yourself completely sorted out to not want your children parented this way, and you cannot "sort yourself and your problems out before concentrating on someone else" , as a previous poster suggested, whilst parenting your children with that someone else. How he parents affects you and your kids constantly, you can't not be involved with his problems, can you?

If I suggest something, he’ll often shut me down by aggressively ask for the ‘evidence’ which of course I don’t always have, or at least not at my fingertips.

Seems to me like if he cares all that much he would be doing his own research, not demanding you do it for him and starting from the presumption that you're wrong. He sounds arrogant.

You're right about the ginger, and why can't your little girl have a treat on a road trip? He seems to have some strange ideas about fun and indulgence inherently spoiling a kid and I think it's more contextual than that. She'd just been sick!

Also fruit smoothies have just as much sugar as a ginger biscuit and are bad for the teeth - not a vastly more healthy alternative as you seem to know. Is he so fixed about his opinions in most areas?

@Laniania you make some good points. I think he would
say that the reason he does some of these things is due to my criticism of him when he does things his own way. He can get very defensive over certain things. I can be critical, that’s true but mostly I’m also seconding guessing my own approach so my thought process is not so much ‘he is doing something wrong’ but more that I’m trying to figure out what is the right way.

Also, I might be inconsistent myself - I want to be a gentle parent but right now I’m finding it hard to always follow what is right. He’ll pick me up on this if I question an approach with him. He thinks that parenting is just common sense aligned with things like minding manners, eating what you’ve been given, doing what you’re told, good behaviour and taking away treats/privileges if these things aren’t done. It’s all very authoritarian. I find it incredible that he thinks that there’s no need for more thought and learning how to parent given that out of his four siblings, only two talk to his dad, his mum and sister have a very strained relationship and one sibling has nothing to do with the other three. All of them seem to have issues with having functional relationships. It’s all so strained and yet he wants to parent like them. He does have very fixed opinions and yes definitely thinks we’re spoiling DD. We both grew up in households without many treats. For my parents, it was a lack of money but they would treat us when they could. For DH’s parents it was principle - his parents were really tight and they would rarely have nice things. Dd is spoiled in comparison but pretty much anyone would be considered so.

DH has lots of good points, genuinely. He is also a product of his upbringing and can be stubborn and lack empathy. Equally, I know I’m a decent person who works hard at things but I can be anxious, over emotional and prone to anger. We’ve both managed to do our best and be good people and have a great relationship until becoming parents - now we’re both reverting to the worst versions of ourselves.

I had to go alone to deliver the baby because of covid. DH would have been there if he could. I wish he had been because I feel like we are worlds apart in how it affected us.