Can my friend access support for her mum, or is this not serious enough for intervention ?

[chattycaterpillar]

Backstory:

My best friend and I met at college at 16; we are both now 29 and still very good friends. She has asked for advice r.e. her mum, I don't know what services can do, so suggested I asked Mumsnet, ( she knows I'm a regular Mumsnetter). She has asked me to show her the thread if it comes up with useful advice etc.

She grew up in a religious family. Her parents attended a C of E church. Whilst my general perception of the C of E is it is generally mainstream, her parents subscribed to a very literal/ extreme version of the religion, ( that anyone who didn't believe would burn in hell forever). Consequently , my friend's mum in particular was terrified of my friend losing her faith, would regularly warn her of the consequences, ( burning in hell), for people who died without faith, and banned my friend from under 18's nights in case "she met and fell in love with a non Christian and they took her away from God/ Heaven). My friend wanted to study philosophy at Uni, but her mum forbade this, ( she thought studying philosophy would turn my friend against religion), and went as far as banning/ binning mainstream philosophy books my friend brought. She would regularly cry and become extremely upset during my friend's childhood at the thought of elderly family member's who had died without religion, and what awaited them, ( hell etc).

Despite the religious upbringing, my friend is agnostic. She was therefore very pleased when a few years ago, her Mum decided she had misinterpreted religion. Her mum essentially now believes that God loves everyone, there are many paths to God and there is salvation for all. She is no longer worried about the fate of elderly family members, ( she now believes God saves all), and initially seemed a lot happier.

Around this time she also became vegan, she began evangelising about the vegan diet in the way she used to about religion, but my friend didn't really mind. But then the patterns got similar, she got really, really , really into veganism and this began manifesting itself, in her telling everyone that diet alone, would cure 99% of illnesses, and modern medicine, ( think vaccines, chemotherapy, antibiotics, antidepressants etc), were all a big con by big pharma/ the NHS/ doctors who were trying but didn't properly understand the science etc, ( she has no medical qualifications).

Then covid happened, which coincided with her retiring from work. She now dedicated all her time, to forums/ online groups which shared her views. They convinced her that covid was essentially a "scam," from the government/ big pharma, a plot to vaccinate us all to control us, and, according to my friend, she spends about 10 hours a day discussing these views/ the truth on various online forums/ platforms.

Despite having several health problems that put her in the high risk catergory, she has refused the vaccine herself. My friend has had to get vaccinated in secret, as her mum has told her she would " not even bear to be able to look at her,"" if she got "that poison," injected into her. She truly, truly has fed into the belief, ( helped by her new online friends), that covid is essentially a scam to trick us into getting a poisonous vaccine, and the government have been manipulating death figures, ( she is sticking posters/ leaflets with words to this affect round our local town).

She is now telling my friend, ( and anyone else that will listen), that she never intends to visit the doctor again, because her internet research has convinced her modern medicine is evil and diet alone will cure all. She is very vocally critical of her sister for "stupidly falling into the evil trap of big pharma/ untrained doctors," and taking arthritis medication prescribed by her GP.

She is also begging my friend not to attend any further standard smear tests, as her online research shows this is a "trick," of doctor'/ the NHS/ big pharma to push people into having unecessary cancer treatment.

She's repeatedly now saying that even if she gets cancer in the future, she won't be attending the doctor's or having any surgery/ chemotherapy/ radiotherapy treatment at all.

My friend is now really worried, if her mum develops cancer/ serious illness in the future, will she really be allowed to refuse all treatment ?

Sexondly, can mental health services do anything to help. The woman doesn't appear to be psychotic, ( she's not hearing/ seeing things), but is basing all her new beliefs on her online "research," which , now she is retired, she can dedicate 10-12 hours a day to. Is there enough here for mental health services to get involved ?

My friend doesn't live with her, but does live locally. Her mum lives with her husband, ( my friend's dad), who will essentially busy himself with work, ( he is still working full time), and more or less go along whatever she says for a quiet life.

Just to add, the reason this is upsetting, is the evils of medicine/ how she intends to refuse treatment/ how she will refuse to speak to my friend if she gets the covid vaccine is all she will ever talk about. On repeat.

Her new views, ( her "new religion," as y friend calls it), is starting to isolate her from people, as family members who are taking regular prescribed medication, ( think type one diabetics, asthmatics, those using antidepressants, those in remission from cancer), are finding being constantly told "they are idiots who are poisoning themselves through listening to uneducated doctor's," offensive.

My friend is essentially worried that as these views cut her off from others, she will feel more and more isolated; and her new online friends will be able to widen their influence. However, she can't see her mum co-operating with any mental health team voluntarily.

Also relevant, a long history of cancer in the family, which is why my friend is so worried.

If she has capacity, it’s up to her what treatment she has/doesn’t have. People often rethink these kind of views when staring down a significant diagnosis, though.

Believing in conspiracy theories isn’t a mental health condition in itself. They’re designed to be very appealing, make the person feel clever and in possession of knowledge ‘they’ don’t want you to have. It plays on human nature. While it must be a frustrating thing to see happen to someone you care about, there’s not really a lot you can do about it, other than keep being calm and factual and tell her that her evangelism about debunked nonsense is isolating her from friends and family.

@TirisfalPumpkin

If she has capacity, it’s up to her what treatment she has/doesn’t have. People often rethink these kind of views when staring down a significant diagnosis, though.

Believing in conspiracy theories isn’t a mental health condition in itself. They’re designed to be very appealing, make the person feel clever and in possession of knowledge ‘they’ don’t want you to have. It plays on human nature. While it must be a frustrating thing to see happen to someone you care about, there’s not really a lot you can do about it, other than keep being calm and factual and tell her that her evangelism about debunked nonsense is isolating her from friends and family.

Stupid question, but how would she be assessed as having capacity, ( or not ) etc ? My friend has talked about calling her mum's GP practice to discuss her concerns r.e. her mum's mental health, but is unsure if they will do anything ?

Your friend could write to her mother's GP but they cannot share information about the mother to your friend. Sounds like the mother won't go to the GP anyways.

@PaulaTrilloe

Your friend could write to her mother's GP but they cannot share information about the mother to your friend. Sounds like the mother won't go to the GP anyways.

No, she definitely wouldn't go to the GP out of choice as she believes they are part of the conspiracy to push poisonous covid vaccines/ unnecessary drug treatment on the public. Says at worst doctor's are bad at best they are uneducated. Says she will not be attending any further standard mammograms as she has seen stuff online that explain how , without treatment, "cancer can actually be good for you and kill off negative cells."

She used to collect her elderly mother-in-laws various prescriptions from the pharmacy, has now refused as she doesn't want to take part in "putting unnecessary poison into Granny," so a neighbour of mother-in-law has to do it instead, ( although mother-in-law is 92, she has full capacity, is very clear she thinks mu friend's mum is delusional and that she intends to continue taking her medication).

Unfortunately, her whole existence now seems to revolve around spending ten hours a day discussing the covid/ medication/ nhs conspiracy with online friends. Most of her real life friends have gone low contact over the past couple of years as she has been so rude to them about standard medication they take, almost accusing them of causing their own illnesses.....my friend was saying she never thought she'd say this, but is missing the "Christian evangelism," phase....( when she was very religious she didn't have any issues with modern medicine).

I would suggest that the Mum has the kind of personality that is attracted to and feels comfortable in situations most of us feel uncomfortable with - devout religion, anti-vax, conspiracy theories etc..I would suggest your friend looks up how to talk to people in cults. It's a very similar frame of thinking.
Mum may have capacity and be taking decisions based on unsound science, but that to her is perfectly rational. I suspect engaging doctors to help someone with a deep suspicion of medicine may be counterproductive - plus her doctors will not be allowed to talk to anyone either.
I think your best approach is to keep communication open, read up on effective ways to talk to people sucked into conspiracy thinking and help her see the nuance. It's not going to happen overnight.

@Beamur

I would suggest that the Mum has the kind of personality that is attracted to and feels comfortable in situations most of us feel uncomfortable with - devout religion, anti-vax, conspiracy theories etc..I would suggest your friend looks up how to talk to people in cults. It's a very similar frame of thinking. Mum may have capacity and be taking decisions based on unsound science, but that to her is perfectly rational. I suspect engaging doctors to help someone with a deep suspicion of medicine may be counterproductive - plus her doctors will not be allowed to talk to anyone either. I think your best approach is to keep communication open, read up on effective ways to talk to people sucked into conspiracy thinking and help her see the nuance. It's not going to happen overnight.

Tbf that is a good point. If anyone did ask her GP practice to get involved, she would see that as further evidence of a conspiracy.

In reality, unless your friend's mother poses a serious and immediate threat to herself or others, no one is going to provide her with any help unless she requests it herself, and even then, services are incredibly stretched, so it probably wouldn't amount to much. The threshold for capacity before taking away a person's autonomy over their health decisions is very high. Nothing in your posts suggests the mother is anywhere near this, or that she poses an immediate danger to anyone.

Out of interest, she is talking abiut being a foster carer for teenagers, would this at least stop any application being successful ?

@5128gap

In reality, unless your friend's mother poses a serious and immediate threat to herself or others, no one is going to provide her with any help unless she requests it herself, and even then, services are incredibly stretched, so it probably wouldn't amount to much. The threshold for capacity before taking away a person's autonomy over their health decisions is very high. Nothing in your posts suggests the mother is anywhere near this, or that she poses an immediate danger to anyone.

This. Your friend needs to detach, protect her own mental health. There is absolutely nothing in the behaviour described that sounds like she lacks capacity. There is nothing she can do and her mother is very much within her rights to refuse medical treatment, a component adult has that right in the vast majority of circumstances. Being a conspiracy theorist doesn't mean she lacks capacity.

@LunaAndHerMoonDragons is spot on. We have a relative like your friend's mum. You have certain topics like covid and health that you just can't talk about. Change the subject, fifteen times in one conversation if necessary. Delete emails that are clearly from conspiracy theory sites. No one will intervene unless they need to be sectioned which they don't.

@chattycaterpillar

Out of interest, she is talking abiut being a foster carer for teenagers, would this at least stop any application being successful ?

Unlikely, unless she explicitly tells them, 'I will withhold medical treatment from the kids'. People with all kinds of beliefs foster children. Maybe having something to focus on apart from the internet might do her good.

As others have said, though, having unpalatable, wrong or socially corrosive opinions doesn't mean you lack capacity to make decisions or have a mental health problem.

But @TirisfalPumpkin, what my friend and I are worried about is she constantly tries to push these views on anyone who will listen. If she is allowed to foster teens, ( albeit she's only talking about it / looking at websites at the minute), she would undoubtedly:

= Tell teenage girls the HPV vaccine would kill/ damage them,
=Try and persuade kids who take regular medication, ( e.g asthma), to stop taking it,

• Tell teens who were taking mental health medication to stop taking it immediately,

-Tell them she wouldn't be able to continue speaking to/ engaging with them if they got the covid vaccine.

I'm not sure she is a safe person to be fostering teens tbh.

Fostering assessments require you to demonstrate that you'd be able and willing to take on advice and work with professionals, including GPs, schools, camhs if needed etc. It's very unlikely your friends mum would get through a conversation without letting on to a social worker that they'd not be willing to do so. Foster carers need references (character references from people who know them well) as part of their assessments too.

It is sad how she is, but certain personality traits + experiences lead some people to be evangelical about things and into conspiracy theories as others have said. There isn't anything that crosses a line for the state or MH services to intervene.

Ps if you Google mental capacity test it's quite simple criteria but hard to fail (as being deemed not to have capacity to make decisions, however unwise, is pretty draconian) If she's capable of understanding what is being asked, weighing up the decision, communicating her view and remembering it afterwards, that's capacity.

There is nothing much you can do. I would take a step back and concentrate on your own life and let the friend and her mother get on with their lives.