Help and change for abusers

[Notsuchaniceguy]

I have posted before about DW and my marriage, mutual behaviours, emotional violence between us. We agreed to try Relate. Had one joint assessment and then both had individual sessions. At the end of mine the counsellor said it was clear to her there was abuse from both sides and this would be fed back to us in a further joint session. She said it was clear from body language, gestures and our narratives.

Whilst none of this feels great practice by her as she didn’t do the joint session, may not do the next one and surely telling someone you think can be abusive that in front of their partner is very risky, I think we’ll be OK to hear it. I am very upset to think that I am what I am but I do now own it. DW less so perhaps. Counsellor also told me to google specialist services for abusers and victims and make contact for joint and individual work. Again I thought joint work was a no-no but maybe she thinks we aren’t too bad or something. Questions I guess I can ask at another session. Along with how can we both be abusers? Surely it has to be one or the other and sometimes the victim will use behaviours as a defence that just look abusive?

My questions are- does anyone know of any resources for the east of England or south east? I can’t find much at all. Lots of places say the Respect website will have things but nothing there except some local projects.

Secondly, has anyone any experience of an abuser really changing? Either within (seems impossible) or out of a relationship? I don’t want this to be me anymore and I have to own it if I am the abuser.l

Anyone? In regard to question 1 I have now found something. In regard to question 2 I guess the answer is perhaps no. An abuser cannot change. Which makes programmes to change abusers pointless? I'll still try one though.

I feel like my whole life was a lie. I thought I was a decent human being, then recently a not so decent human and in the last 48 hours a monster. I'm obsessively going back through my life and two relationships and seeing what I did wrong.

DW as I have said is desperate for us not to separate. She thinks we can easily stop hurting each other. I disagree. I am thinking I am not safe to be with her and her not safe to be with me. Not physically dangerous (although in recent weeks getting closer through her expressing anger - which maybe I caused in some para-conscious way) but emotionally dangerous.

Very gently, I have found that the dynamics of a relationship are extremely hard to change. Some people say that it can be accomplished but generally speaking we fall into patterns of interaction with each other and they are very hard to change.

I have had personal experience of this and observed it from a distance and when stressful situations arise which is inevitable, it is very difficult to change your instinctive reaction.

I am not saying it's impossible, just very difficult. I agree that the counsellor did not meet best practice by saying that you were abusive to each other.

Relate can also be rubbish too when it comes to such issues, many of them do not understand abuse at all.

Do not undertake any form of joint counselling.

I found joint counselling helpful if both parties are unafraid to be honest and/or call out/address lies from the other party. Though some things are about perspective obviously.

I also feel that certain abusers could change depending on the triggers. Eg. If financial stress is triggering, then financial help/organisation/budgeting could help the couple cope more with that, which in turn alleviates the high anxiety resulting in abusive behaviour.

In my experience though, the abuser has to genuinely accept and want help to change. Otherwise it's a lie, a tick box exercise that does nobody any long term benefit. As with most things, treating the cause and not just the symptom can be lengthy and illuminating and requires stamina and open mindedness.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

Relate can also be rubbish too when it comes to such issues, many of them do not understand abuse at all.

Do not undertake any form of joint counselling.

I was surprised by Relate myself. I was asked 5 questions as part of the 1-1 assessment. one was whether there was anything I felt I couldn't say in front of DW. There is - that I have spoken to non mutual friends about us and posted here. DW would be very very hurt by this and I do think when she is hurt she expresses it as anger. It makes sense, it was what she needed to do to survive her mother and step dad.

That said, am I being abusive by speaking to people behind her back? Am I manipulating my friends? Until this week I'd have said no but now I am thinking that I am being abusive by doing so. I have a pattern of secrecy and so easily end up being deceitful and a need to be tense and anxious which being deceitful gives me. It was my childhood, I have no idea what calm feels like because I was always on edge or afraid as a kid.

I can't really recall the other Relate questions. The ending was so hard and painful that it is all a blur. It wasn't what I expected though, the counsellor didn't really look at me, just at notes I think she was making. Then very directive about us finding services for us both and this feedback session we will have together.

I feel like I should be branded as dangerous now. Probably Abusive: Keep Back.

What is it that you are doing that is abusive? Has the counsellor explained this? Has your DW explained this? Do you control her? Resent if she goes out without you? Not let her have money? Sulk if she says or does something you don't like? Are you physically abusive? Do you tell her she's a bad person? Do you mock her? Do you belittle her? Do you lie to her and deceive her? Do you manipulate her to get your own way?

Are all the things you do to her unique to her? Or do you do them to other people too?

It all feels a little vague. But ultimately, if you have behaviours that are abusive, I believe that you can change. But you have to want to change. And you have to put the work in.

I don't really see how joint counselling will help with that. Because your'e just putting the onus on her not to "trigger" you, rather than doing the work yourself.

Forget Relate. I think the key to change is unlocking why you react the way you do to things in the first place. You've already said that both your reactions and those of your wife are down to issues/trauma as children.
Dealing with this will help you understand and change what is often built in behaviour. What started as self protection as a child has morphed into adult responses that are not appropriate in the context of a relationship. It sounds like you both need individual therapy to work on yourselves before you can start to rebuild your relationship, or separate and consider a new one.

I say this gently but you seem to be very focused on what Relate has said and not particularly focused on your behaviour. If you agree you're "not a nice guy" then put the work in to change. You come across as someone who wants to be told his behaviour isn't that bad. I can't comment because I don't know you but if you think you're the problem, fix it. If you think SHE is the problem, leave if she's not willing to fix it.

am I being abusive by speaking to people behind her back?

No, not if you're discussing the relationship difficulties, or even if you're just having a whinge about her - venting to friends has kept many a relationship going through difficult patches.

If you were telling people things that she'd specifically asked you to keep secret, or with the goal of isolating her, then yes that would be abusive.

I would knock joint counselling on the head, get yourself into individual therapy and work through for yourself if you want to stay in the marriage or not. Your wife may be desperate to not split, but she doesn't have the power of veto over you leaving.

@Triffid1

I say this gently but you seem to be very focused on what Relate has said and not particularly focused on your behaviour. If you agree you're "not a nice guy" then put the work in to change. You come across as someone who wants to be told his behaviour isn't that bad. I can't comment because I don't know you but if you think you're the problem, fix it. If you think SHE is the problem, leave if she's not willing to fix it.

I do want to put the work in to change. I am a bit focussed on Relate because I was shocked by how what was said was done.

I think we can display abusive behaviours at times if we've grown up witnessing abuse or feeling afraid.

There is an abusive relationship freedom programme for perpetrators you could both do separately online.

Personally I think unless you can both learn how to regulate better your cycle will continue. It's all about regulation IMO. CPTSD from childhood causes us to dysregulate and be selfish and put our need for security before anything.

@EvenMoreFuriousVexation

am I being abusive by speaking to people behind her back?

No, not if you're discussing the relationship difficulties, or even if you're just having a whinge about her - venting to friends has kept many a relationship going through difficult patches.

If you were telling people things that she'd specifically asked you to keep secret, or with the goal of isolating her, then yes that would be abusive.

I would knock joint counselling on the head, get yourself into individual therapy and work through for yourself if you want to stay in the marriage or not. Your wife may be desperate to not split, but she doesn't have the power of veto over you leaving.

No I'm not revealing secrets to others. And it's not about isolating her. That said she does not like me doing it. Posting on here is something i also keep hidden as she would be very hurt and afraid that she would be 'outed'.

I have no problem with her having friends that aren't mutual, that she can talk about us to. I trust her not to lie about me or reveal my secrets and I'm ok with her discussing our problems and my poor behaviours. If I did something I have to own it.