Ds dad waffling on at him

[TheChip]

Me and ds dad broke up years ago. He is textbook narcissist, but has maintained steady contact throughout. As ds has got older (he is preteen), he has started noticing things about his dad. Like the lies, his manipulation etc.

Anyway, dad himself caused enough confusion with ds that ds stopped contact on his own. Well, dad was refusing to spend time with ds without his new girlfriend. So ds just stopped going. I tried encouraging contact, but it got to the point of where I felt like I wasn't respecting my ds decision.

So, after months, ds decided he wanted to see him again and asked dad if he could. Dad was seemingly over the moon and arranged contact for Friday gone. Only Friday came around and ds excitedly checked his phone after school to see no time had been set. He text his dad asking and got the response "I'm at work. I'll pick you up in the morning and we will go for lunch"
The next day came and dad text ds again to tell him that he is at work and can it be Sun.
Do didn't respond, and I don't blame him to be honest.
No message arranging a time today.

Ds has came to me tonight saying "mam. Dad is going on and on about randomness again"
He showed me the messages and I see that ds had messaged him earlier today and dad said he was once again at work.

Then he has started messaging out of the blue again tonight telling ds that no one dictates his life blah blah blah. Paragraph after paragraph of shit. Basically saying that I have stopped ds from wanting to see him, when I really have not. Ds was even telling dad at the time what the issue was, but dad wouldn't listen. Telling ds that he is a child and can not dictate who he does or doesn't see.

Why did dad arrange to see him on Friday and ask if he was staying the weekend if he knew he was at work, or knew there was a possibility of work. Why after months of not seeing ds has he allowed 3 days of work to take priority?
With the lies he tells its hard to know if work is even happening.

He has even told ds he is upset that he didn't see him at Christmas. Dad invited him but then told ds he wouldn't be home anyway as he was away over Christmas. So again, confused him.

I want to tell ds to tell him to get stuffed, but instead I feel like I have to just sit back and watch.

At which point do I intervene and how do I intervene? Dad is blocked on my end due to him still being abusive towards me 8 years down the line.

I really don't know how to handle this.

OP your exh sounds remarkably like mine, and we have an 11yo DD. It's hard to know whether to intervene or not, but it's awful to see them use the same language and emotionally abusive tactics on your kids that they used on you.

Some of the stuff that my exh says to our DD is completely lost on an 11 year old, and the language he uses (not swearing just intricate) is nowhere near age appropriate. Then when he gets an 'ok' from her (because she has no clue how to respond!) he calls her disinterested and never mind 'I won't bother texting again'. At which point she shows me the text and asks me what he means so she can respond accordingly. It's fucking ridiculous and you have my sympathy OP.

Luckily she's seeing him more and more for what he is, and I've stopped sugar coating his behaviour. I won't bad mouth him at all, but I also won't defend him to her. I think this is the key really.

As @Pinkbonbon said upthread, learning to spot toxic traits (even in a parent) is important. It's also something that will be useful throughout their lives.

@BabyInTheJungle

What a horrible situation.

I'm sure you are already doing this but be sure to validate your son's feelings and not bite your tongue too much! I grew up with someone in my life who treated me badly, my parents took a very neutral, hands-off 'one day BabyInTheJungle will work it out for herself'. I did, but there was decades of damage done meantime. I needed protection and validation that the hurt I felt was OK and I shouldn't have to endure it over and over. All it would have taken was my parents to confirm that the person was acting badly and hurting me.

Sorry if that's condescending - I just vowed that I would be honest with my own children about the behaviour of others (without just badmouthing someone for the sake of it).

I needed to read this. I'm in a very similar situation to the OP. I always go with validating my children's feelings. They love their Dad but say he can be mean and manipulative. I can't deny it so I no longer do. Your post has confirmed that I shouldn't either x

@Pinkbonbon

I think 11 is old enough to tell him about narcissists and other personality disorders ir at least, emotionally healthy vs unhealthy behaviours. You don't need to use his dads behaviour as an example. Let him join his own dots.

Tell him it's something he should look out for throughout life as if he can spot abusive ppl and bullies early, he can avoid them better. Send him links to articles where he will recognise the behaviours. Peak his interest and let him learn fir himself.

Also, when he tells you things his dad does just listen and show empathy. Don't say things like 'your dad loves you really' Or try to excuse the behaviours as this can be very damaging to your child. You don't want him to excuse cruelty because someone 'apparently' loves him.

Hopefully in his terns he'll decide to tell the cunt to sod off. But the sooner he can learn about toxic ppl, the better.

Great advice x

Glad it was helpful totallyoutnumbered.

The message I took from my childhood was 'my mum and dad aren't saying anything about this behaviour so it be ok, and the hurt and anger I feel must be wrong'

They were great parents but this particular aspect of parenting I intend to do differently!

@BabyInTheJungle

Glad it was helpful totallyoutnumbered.

The message I took from my childhood was 'my mum and dad aren't saying anything about this behaviour so it be ok, and the hurt and anger I feel must be wrong'

They were great parents but this particular aspect of parenting I intend to do differently!

Interesting. I'm sorry you had to go through that. When did you start unpicking it all?. I can't help but feel I'll end up having to do that with my children a lot. Do your parents acknowledge it now?

Your ex does sound mentally unwell. Or is there a possibility that when he sends these rants, he's been partaking in certain substances....?

Either way you do need to protect your DS from this. He needs to know that he doesn't have to put up with this from anyone - family or otherwise.

Thank you everyone and I am sorry that others are going through this, too. It really is horrible just not knowing how best to handle it when you know how it ends.

Ds dad is exactly the same @KurtWilde with saying "I won't text anymore" and "fuck it. I'm done trying" when he doesn't respond how dad wants him to.

If only they meant it when they said they wouldn't text anymore. It would make everything so much easier.
I honestly think ds would just carry in with his life how it currently is if dad wasn't asking to see him constantly.

That is so sad that you felt that way as a child @BabyInTheJungle but thank you for sharing. It makes me all the more determined to not feel bad about being honest to ds.

This is a deeply unstable man who deliberately messed your son around to punish him for withdrawing.

Typical narcissistic behaviour.

@Pinkbonbon gives excellent advice.

Protecting your child is gently explaining in an age appropriate way that his father is a complete headcase and cannot be depended upon or trusted.

If he expects absolutely NOTHING from his father, he will not be disappointed.

He needs to be encouraged to expect NOTHING in his own best interests.

Would you look into some therapy for your son to help him deal with what a waste of space his father is?

It might help him as he transitions through the teenage years.

You sound like a wonderful mother.

Keep copies of his texts to your son.

Only 11, poor little thing. My dd's dad is similarly shit, she's 16 and doesn't talk to him now. Hope you and your son are OK.

@TheChip

Thank you everyone and I am sorry that others are going through this, too. It really is horrible just not knowing how best to handle it when you know how it ends.

Ds dad is exactly the same @KurtWilde with saying "I won't text anymore" and "fuck it. I'm done trying" when he doesn't respond how dad wants him to.

If only they meant it when they said they wouldn't text anymore. It would make everything so much easier.
I honestly think ds would just carry in with his life how it currently is if dad wasn't asking to see him constantly.

That is so sad that you felt that way as a child @BabyInTheJungle but thank you for sharing. It makes me all the more determined to not feel bad about being honest to ds.

It's shit OP. It sounds like you're handling it the right way. The amount of people that have said to me the kids will figure it out for themselves is overwhelming. But we don't want them to figure it out for themselves do we?. Previous posters (can't tag)advice has really resonated with me and I'm sure it has with you too. It feels like double parenting all the time but we have no choice. I've started talking to my oldest about personality traits in the last year or so when he got involved with a controlling girl at school. I suspect that he'll start joining those dots very soon. I wish you and yours the best x

Yes, exactly @totallyoutnumbered Figuring it out themselves is a lot to put onto them really. It was hard for me as an adult to figure out what was happening and the damage his dad did to me was massive. How a child is expected to manage that unscathed is beyond me.

How would I go about therapy? I dont think I could afford private. Would the NHS pick it up without the likes of referrals from others such as children services?

Thank you all again for the kind words, encouragement and reassurance

Interesting. I'm sorry you had to go through that. When did you start unpicking it all?. I can't help but feel I'll end up having to do that with my children a lot. Do your parents acknowledge it now?

In my late 20s I was seeing a therapist about what I thought was an unrelated matter when it all came together like a puzzle. I realised all of the harmful messages I'd taken on board from my childhood had translated into harmful behaviours as an adult. Thankfully I was able to then begin to deal with them. I've never really properly discussed it with my parents and it would cause them hurt to discuss it now so I won't. The person has died now and I've moved on. I realise now that my parents were probably also ground down and afraid of her too.

As a parent now I've realised how important small every day messages to our children are. It's not necessarily the big moments they will remember or be shaped by, but small words of reassurance and validation, repeated consistently at appropriate points. Some very brief but honest conversations would have helped me understand the dynamic. I think most children have tendancy to blame themselves and see adults (especially in their family) as infallible. I don't want this to be the same.

You sound like an amazing parent OP, dealing with something so hard. I find parenting hard enough with a lovely supportive and kind DH. I can't imagine how hard it is to deal with such a horrible ex. Good luck!

Agree with @Pinkbonbon - great advice. I think teaching children that adults can behave badly and that it's not okay is actually very important. It's funny, because in most cases, if we do something that isn' t okay to our children, most of us would subsequently apologise, explain that we shouldn't have behaved that way etc. But when it comes to the behaviour of OTHER adults to our children, we seem to feel we have to justify it with the classic, "he can't help it, he does love you really" etc.

I have to admit, I didn't know that the sort of weird ranty messages are classic narcissist behaviour but it makes a lot of sense when looking at BIL who is clearly a narcissist. I Just thought the incoherent ranting on text was just an additional twat aspect of his personality! Unfortunately, it's pretty clear already that this will be him in a few years when his DC are older.

It's important for them to know that the behaviour of the adults in their lives isn't always good or right.

He had me scared of saying anything at one point, as his abusive ways had me conditioned for years even after we separated. He only had to throw one threat at me and I backed down. Took me a while to build myself back up to being in a place where I felt confident enough to bite back.

Now I intervene when exh is ranting at our 11yo and I don't care if he hates it. I hate seeing what he's doing to our daughter, and her feelings trump his every time. Hopefully I'm helping her to see it's ok to stand up to people like that, even if they're family, and that I'm in her corner when she does.

If you can’t afford therapy, look up online resources - narration can be key for kids + helpful for your relationship with ds. I would start to step in at this point- your ds needs you to help him interpret his dads behaviour in a way that doesn’t lay the blame at ds door, or equally take on behaviour by accident. He does need you to be proactive in this

One other thing I'm learning from dealing with this indirectly, is that the hardest thing is to understand and accept that the irrational behaviour is just that - irrational. I see SIL tying herself in knots trying to work out if anything BIL says is perhaps justified etc. When he sends these rants to us, DH and I have learnt not to respond because all that does is lead to longer, more detailed rants from him that are even more irrational. But it's incredibly difficult to get your head around that - the temptation is to explain, argue, justify. DS is going to have to learn that and you are going to have to help him.

I'm so glad I found this thread. Thanks OP. I'm
Sorry you're going through the same but it sounds like you're all over it as am I. Hard, hard work but no option but to do the right things by your children every single time. I'm grateful that my kids have many other adult role models in their lives who are balanced and "normal". I hope enough to offset the potential damage their father could cause x