The cause of family enmeshment?

[Pumpinthestereo]

I thought that I just had a very distant, unrelatable family but I've come to the realisation that DHs family are all enmeshed and that the level of closeness isn't all that normal.

This is after a conversation with my new BIL (DHs sister's new husband) when he shared that he thought the relationships that DH and SIL have with their parents weren't normal. I'd thought it, but had put it down to having very insular, emotionally unavailable parents myself.

DH and SIL seem to ask for FILs advice and opinion on absolutely everything. FIL runs around doing errands for them every single day, MIL takes an odd degree of interest in every minor details of their lives, they talk of each other constantly. All share books, watch the same series, films, can't get by without visiting each other atleast every 2-3 days.

Every problem that DH and SIL bump into seemingly needs to be solved by FIL and MIL. I have distanced myself drastically as I felt suffocated. DH has improved his distance over the years, but it's still slightly odd. From what I can gather, SIL still very much lives in their pockets.

What's the cause?

Covert incest. I.e. emotional boundaries blurred. Often happens when one or both parents have narcissistic traits. I come from an enmeshed family.

Families can chose the degree of closeness, and its a gross exaggeration to call what you describe as ‘incest’.
It’s clear your H’s relationship with his parents evolved since he married you. His sister’s also will.
Not sure what the issue is. He doesn’t expect you to be close with his parents. They have a close relationship and see each other often. If you had kids - I am sure the grand parents would be a great help and kids will love having an extended family that cares about them.
Do you feel that you need to force your H to ‘chose you’ over his family - and put more of a distance between them?
Why is that?

Covert incest is a kind of non sexual incest. A bit like an emotional affair can be non sexual, but still destructive to a marriage. There is no privacy permitted by the parent, the childs boundaries are eroded. They aren't allowed to properly leave home and detach, the parents continue to be overly invested in their life. They aren't allowed any privacy.

''Covert incest occurs when a parent or caregiver relies on a child for support that a romantic partner would typically give.
''A relationship is covertly incestuous if there is a consistent lack of parent-child boundaries.''
www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covert-incest#examples

What errands does your DH get his DF to run around with everyday?

What advice is he asking and do you not work together as adults to solve your problems?

What detail is MIL focused on?

Do you think that your DH is as emotionally unavailable to you as your DP were to you?

I couldn't cope with that but that doesn't mean it's wrong or should be given an unpleasant label

What do you call it when the grown child - in their 50s with partner & kids -won't detach? Keeps calling the father for advice (and counselling siblings to do the same!)
Father at wit's end, even the partner has taken on practice of calling the father to complain about the way the father brought up their child?!?

I wouldn't say that his parents overly rely on them for emotional support, but are suffocating with their support/advice/opinions. DH and SIL seem to seek it constantly though and are not capable of making decisions alone.
My marriage has been undermined hundreds of times, as decisions we make together can be overtaken by an opinion given by them. Often things to do with finances- where to bank, what to spend his bonus on, mortgage interferences. DH will procrastinate on these things, despite my wants and will await instruction from them. I think they have been disabled from thinking for themselves over the years by having a lot of the thinking done for them. They haven't been allowed to grow and function as adults. They have been sheltered and shielded from making mistakes. My marriage is better than it was with this but is still affected.

@ESGdance yes DH is very much emotionally unavailable too- what made you suspect this?

I had suffocating, controlling yet neglectful parents.

They tried to control every aspect of my life and wanted to keep me in a 'child-like' state if that makes sense.

I never had any of the normal experience of growing-up in my teenage years (never dated anyone until I was 21). My mother went into hysterics every time I tried to make a decision for myself like what I wanted to study and what career I wanted. She had decided I was going to be a teacher. She even went to the length of destroying university acceptance letters...I was always made to feel stupid and unable to think for myself.

I was also the 'third person' in their marriage as my mother relied on my for emotional support when I was a child and complained about my father. Complete lack of boundaries.

I have been NC with them for most of my life.

I think families being close is not an issue but when family members are manipulating and controlling someone to the point where they doubt themselves and feel unable to lead an independent life then there is an issue.

That’s shocking that your H puts his P above you - and you allow your major financial life decisions to steamrollered by them.

Have you just chosen to be submissive now?
Because it seems that by allowing this you are also now inadvertently enmeshed in this family as they are controlling and impacting your life and your marriage.

It must be emotionally very lonely - as he can’t be emotionally available to you because he is emotionally enmeshed with his parents already - can’t be in two emotional places at once.

Sounds like the new BIL is frustrated and has woken you up. It’s likely that not being heard, seen or prioritised is a familiar emotional state for you from childhood and is being played out here again with your DH.

I would get some one to one therapy to understand what’s going on and how you can put in expectations and boundaries and have some agency in your own life rather than being chronically lonely and disappointed and submissive. If you don’t deal with it the rot of resentment and contempt will set in.

I've had 1:1 therapy for a long time @esgdance
We know I need to leave, but I have had a lot of challenges which I'm now coming out the other side of, meaning I can really start to plan for it.
There are other issues, aside from his parents etc.

Wow. I didn’t know this was a thing, but exactly explains my ExDPs behaviour - his parents (DM especially) were so invasive - we couldn’t even choose a sofa, fridge freezer, etc without them coming to showrooms with us and considering their input - and that was the tip of the iceberg.
OP, from experience, it is very unlikely this will improve unless you are very firm with your DH

"we couldn’t even choose a sofa, fridge freezer, etc without them coming to showrooms with us and considering their input -"
😂 @spitspatspot they don't come to showrooms with us, but go through Which making sure we're "getting the best one." 🥴 life's too short.

If you read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward she uses the phrase “Emotional Incest” - it’s not a pretty descriptor but the sentiment is accurate - engulfing, no boundaries, imbalance/abuse of power, control, coercion etc.

I am glad you have professional support and that you are working through challenges. My advice is not to get to caught up in defining their behaviour / dysfunction (you know it is - that’s enough) but concentrate on rebuilding your own original inner emotional
issues that allowed you to accept this unsatisfactory relationship. When you do this you will have the clarity and focus to move on and not run the risk of falling into a similar dynamic because you will be emotionally healthy, intact and well rounded.

If they’re anything like my family then it will have been passed down through the generations and they simply do not know any different. My DM’s family are very enmeshed and codependent and so are my DF’e to a lesser extent, although not anywhere near as badly as my DM’s side.

DM’s family love to present themselves as this really close clan like extended family, but scratch the surface and you’ll see all is not well. There is LOTS of simmering resentment and unsaid stuff. They love to boast about how they never argue so issues are never discussed openly and brushed under the carpet to maintain the ‘close family’ facade, because you know god forbid someone should have an argument and ruin that. My DM’s mother was almost certainly a narc and her children were trained to revolve their lives around her, and there is a desperation to keep all of us kids and grandkids in the fold. There is a lot of emotional manipulation to keep us in the fold and if that doesn’t work the slagging off starts. Anyone who moves away and forms their own life or does things differently is accused of forgetting where they’ve come from, being stuck up etc

They do not understand boundaries because they never had them. When my SIL was pregnant my DB told my parents under not certainty were they to tell a hind until he said they could, and although she respected his wishes you could almost see her brain struggling to process it. There are no secrets and they tell each other all their business all of the time. My DM even rang them all up to tell them I’d been put on Antidepressants!

It is really, really hard to break away from people like this and do things differently. For a long time I thought all of this was normal. We are conditioned from birth to behave in a certain way.

Anyway hope that helps OP.