How do you have a conversation about separation when you’re not talking in the first place?

[Einaudi]

Why can I clearly explain to my counsellor, but not to my dh, why we need to separate?

Why does dh say he wants to salvage a relationship one one hand but, on the other, turns round and walks out of a room if I’m sitting in it, hasn’t worn his wedding ring for a long time, took down wedding photos almost a year ago, says he is ‘tolerating’ the children and I, is passive aggressive and rude at times? We are living in the same house but barely speaking.

I need to discuss it with him. But whenever I try I end up feeling that I’m at fault, I’ve remembered things wrong, I’ve misinterpreted what he said or am just wrong. I always end up conceding to his point of view, and taking the blame.

My counsellor has said this is gaslighting, but how do you get over it to have a conversation that will, ultimately, put a bomb under yours and the children’s lives?

Apply for a divorce and give him the paperwork. He'll choose to talk or not.

Don’t explain, simply tell him the marriage is over and make arrangements to separate. You don’t need his consent or agreement, you don’t need him to acknowledge his behaviour. You want out, which is reason enough.

Wise words from @MrsTerryPratchett, as usual. I concur.

Stop waiting for his consent, because you'll never get it. Maybe wilfully so. Just press ahead. Gather support from other quarters. Just protect any valuable belongings first. Good luck!

Thank you everyone - you’re right about never getting his consent. But, it’s not him that won’t talk - it’s me :( Every time he tries to discuss it, I end up feeling like I’ve got it all wrong, and end up agreeing to his narrative. So, I’m just not talking about it.

He’s made it clear it has to be my decision about separating. But I can’t talk to him.

If I were to simply say it’s over, that’s it. Then, his narrative would be that I chose to end the marriage, to move the children out of their happy home, that I was over reacting.

But if I try and actually talk about it, it becomes my fault again.

It’s a vicious circle :(

That's A narrative, not THE narrative.

Everyone gets their own, doubly so in a divorce.

Dude, just say it. Out loud.

I'm done. I'm out. I'm getting a divorce.

This isn't about positions, conceding, discussing to pursuade.

This is simply stating facts.

I will not remain married to you. We're getting a divorce because I am done.

And make it happen. File the papers.

because it must be difficult, but the honest answer is, you just do what you've got to do.

@Einaudi

Thank you everyone - you’re right about never getting his consent. But, it’s not him that won’t talk - it’s me :( Every time he tries to discuss it, I end up feeling like I’ve got it all wrong, and end up agreeing to his narrative. So, I’m just not talking about it.

He’s made it clear it has to be my decision about separating. But I can’t talk to him.

If I were to simply say it’s over, that’s it. Then, his narrative would be that I chose to end the marriage, to move the children out of their happy home, that I was over reacting.

But if I try and actually talk about it, it becomes my fault again.

It’s a vicious circle :(

Who says you're moving out?

Go see a solicitor and take it from there.

I know it's hard.

I've been there.

Un the end you have to stop thinking he has to agree to this or you have to explain this.

It's over. You need to say that.

And then didcuss the practicalities.

Maybe see a solicitor first as if he has a history of gas lighting you, he will try and tell you how it is going to go (according to him).

Get straight in your head what YOU want to happen, who lives, where etc. Not what He wants.

He won't be shy about telling you that and will try to bamboozle you.

Post here if you want to talk it through first.

Whatever he says, you can still say I disagree, that’s not true. And keep repeating it. Tell him he’s had years to talk but hasn’t, he’s not worn his ring for ages, it’s been over for a long time and you think it’s time to call it quits.

his narrative would be that I chose to end the marriage, to move the children out of their happy home, that I was over reacting.

Who gives a shit what he says?

Is it an ego thing? Are you worried what people will say or believe has happened in your marriage?

@Einaudi the children aren’t in a happy home, not if their parents aren’t talking. I promise you it ending this will be so much better for you, and then. My ex said I was breaking up the home after he behaved badly, they all say it because they don’t want to accept guilt or blame. Years down the line it won’t matter who left who just that you are in a better place apart. Good luck!

@Woofwoofbarkbark and @EvenMoreFuriousVexation goodness me no, not an ego thing at all - well, I don’t think so. The only people that I am worried about believing his narrative are our children. Is that egotistic?

@Ringonrighthand yo) are right, I think the children would have a better home life were we apart and there wasn’t a ‘stand off’ silent atmosphere :(

@jamaisjedors you have something in that, by this point, I need to believe that I don’t need to explain myself. That will take some work, though…

@Nanny0gg I think we’d both have to move to smaller houses. The home we are in would be considered too big for 1adult, 2kids and has a number of expensive things that will need sorting in the next 5 years or so. I couldn't afford that if I were to stay here.

No, I don't think so. Its wanting your children to see the best in you and understand the truth. But maybe that doesn't happen until they are old enough to understand complex relationships. Sorry OP, this whole situation must be very painful.

I can understand the desire to have a conversation where you say "Because of X, we should divorce" and he says "Ah yes, I see it now, you are right, we should" (instead of him making you doubt X is true by putting his own spin on it). But that is not going to happen.

So forget the first "Because of X" part, as PP have said, all you need to say is "It's over".

I'd say that you are dealing with a practical example of why you want to leave in the first place?

He's taking this and twisting it to make you wrong. This is wrong of him. You're not being allowed to say he's wrong. Its wrong of you to day he's wrong.

Right?!

I'm not divorced but it seems the one who bails gets the blame. But you're bailing because of the wrong ness and he wont admit or address.

What a minefield!! Best thing is to strengthen yourself away from him and just get it started with no further discussion. Talking to him ties you in knots. Forget it.

What's the issue with it being your choice, problem or fault? You're allowed to call time on this situation.

How old are the kids?

We agreed the age appropriate narrative jointly. He always said he would 'tell them the truth when they are old enough'. He liked to wield that over me. But that was years ago now. He hasn't yet. Maybe he will one day. But i think they are old enough now and have seen enough to take it with a pinch of salt. I was terrified at the time. But it has faded.

If he is genuinely likely to fill young childrens head with toxic nonesense then you cant fight that. He will do it regardless. But it could just be intense fear on your part.

Also, move forwards. As telling the kids is not the bit you do on day zero. But once someone is ready to move out/there is a plan.

Agree with others. Dont give up the house too easily. Just because it may need to be sold in five. You only need a 1/2 year plan to move forwards. My ex h was v obstructive so i did move into rented myself so it was harder for him to control me.

That's HIS narrative, not YOURS. A few years down the line, it won't matter what he says, you'll be divorced and you and the dc will be living in a lovely, stress free environment

Just kick off divorce proceedings, when he says it your fault, and that you are choosing to split up the family and move the kids away, just say 'yes you're right, I am' then walk off

I expect he’s waiting for you to cave first because then it’s your ‘fault’. Therefore in his mind you have to do the work to make the divorce happen, ie

• tell the children it’s down to you
• do the leg work to sort divorce lawyers
• book appointments for mediation to sort child residency etc
• find accommodation & move out first

All he has to do is sit in the family home & complain that you left him & took his children away.

But that’s his narrative, you’re divorcing so his opinion (of you) no longer matters. I agree with seeing a lawyer is the first step - you don’t need his agreement for that. More experienced posters will probably have better advice, but I would start quietly getting your own bank account, stop paying in to joint savings, have child benefit paid to your account, move half of savings to your own account etc Also, stop living as a couple, so he can do his own washing etc

Good luck 💐