3rd marriage on the rocks?

[MysticHare]

Hi everyone - I really need some advice regarding my marriage. We're in our mid 50s and have both been married before - we've been together over six years now and love each other very much. We recently moved to a lovely house and are happy in our new location. There is so much that is good about our relationship. However...

The problems I have is that he is a very critical person and at times really nit picks over things which chips away at my confidence. I wish I stood up to him more but I hate confrontation. When he's in a surly mood, it can lead to awful arguments where he says really nasty things. Later on we hug and make up but I can't stop feeling angry. He often puts me down often starting a sentence in the negative like "did you not see the...", "do you not realise that..." like I'm an idiot.

The other big issue I have is that he is very untidy. It might not sound like much but his stuff is left all over the house and it really, really makes me stressed and unhappy and I feel that having poured my life savings in to the house he should respect my wishes as I try to respect his.

I cry a lot in private because I just don't know how to resolve it. I really don't want to tear my life apart again with divorce but I'm not sure how to tolerate this. The idea of telling my family and our kids (we have four daughters between us - my two are grown up, his live with their mother) that I am divorcing again is horrendous - besides all of this, I love him. It would be different if I didn't.

Yes, we've talked, many times over the years, and when I talk to him and he's rational, things improve for a while but quickly slip back again. He will tidy up but I will have to keep asking him and sometimes he gets nasty. In a row the other day, he said that he was losing his identity, partly through work and me also - his reason for being messy was to put his identity on the place. Reason being that I own the majority of the house and have lots of my furniture in it. He has very little in comparison because he was in a highly abusive relationship before me (she towards him) and lost everything.

I just don't know how to get through to him. When I have talked about separating, he thinks I don't mean it. But I'm beginning to.

Has anyone got any advice on how to deal with him? Should I just walk into another room when he puts me down? Or do I walk away for good?

@thetinsoldier

I wonder why he's been divorced before... are you sure it was his partner who was abusive???

I'd get rid. This is who he is. He's telling you clearly.

Don't waste any more time with him.

Yes - it absolutely was his partner - I have witnessed her abuse.

@frozendaisy

So new year new start.

Tell him that enough us enough.
But compromise.
So he gets a room to have all his stuff in.
Dump his mess in there. He can sort at leisure or not but it's his space.

And stand up for yourself. If he starts putting you down point out that you can't be that much of a failure as you did put in most of the equity of the house etc.

Point out your positives rather than trying to defend his negatives of you.

This marriage needs to work for both of you.

@frozendaisy Thank you for not telling me to throw the towel in - there has to be a way through it - he's not a monster.

Your advice is good - thanks again

Leave and live in separate homes. I can't live with other people because their habits piss me off (divorced twice) but a partner I don't live with is fine.
Its bloody difficult living with someone.

Whatever the rights or wrongs, the marriage is making you cry a lot and you're only staying out of embarrassment. Seriously, this is your life, what does it matter what other people think? They will get over it. If you're unhappy and you've tried everything to resolve things with no good outcome, it could be time to call it a day.

The tidiness thing- I would designate certain rooms as his rooms that he can have how he likes, certain rooms that are yours (e.g. an office or bedroom) and shared rooms. The shared rooms have to be tidy, all crap gets put in the respective rooms. It doesn't sound like you live in a small space so there should be room for both.

Criticism, or even just constant unwanted advice, is horrible, and if you believe John Gottman, a good predictor of divorce, so I would deal with this actively, not by shouting back, but by sitting down when you are not shouting, and telling him how it makes you feel, what you want him to do. I would mention you can't go on living like this.

www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/

Also, are you in the menopause, if so and you think your own moods/sensitivity is worse, or you are more crying/anxious than usual, consider HRT or getting more information about this. It may be an interactive thing where he is critical, you get very distressed, he doesn't know how to handle it and so on.

Would he consider couple's counselling?

I would try to let him understand and be firm that putting you down is not acceptable. Those other bits are less of a problem. There is not perfect relationship and if you love each other that is very important. Do not become a door mat but do not leave if you are already thinking that this is not what you want. Marriage is hard but you can work on things.

And yes menopause can mess things up.

[quote OnwardsAndSideways1]The tidiness thing- I would designate certain rooms as his rooms that he can have how he likes, certain rooms that are yours (e.g. an office or bedroom) and shared rooms. The shared rooms have to be tidy, all crap gets put in the respective rooms. It doesn't sound like you live in a small space so there should be room for both.

Criticism, or even just constant unwanted advice, is horrible, and if you believe John Gottman, a good predictor of divorce, so I would deal with this actively, not by shouting back, but by sitting down when you are not shouting, and telling him how it makes you feel, what you want him to do. I would mention you can't go on living like this.

www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/[/quote]
Good advice and I read your article - thank you.

I will try talking to him - again - certainly we are at level 1. The other "horsemen" aren't there as yet.

@OnwardsAndSideways1

Also, are you in the menopause, if so and you think your own moods/sensitivity is worse, or you are more crying/anxious than usual, consider HRT or getting more information about this. It may be an interactive thing where he is critical, you get very distressed, he doesn't know how to handle it and so on.

Would he consider couple's counselling?

I'm actually through the menopause some years - but I am a particularly sensitive person and now I find the smallest thing harder to deal with because it's that old "death by 1000 cuts" thing

@Lolamento

I would try to let him understand and be firm that putting you down is not acceptable. Those other bits are less of a problem. There is not perfect relationship and if you love each other that is very important. Do not become a door mat but do not leave if you are already thinking that this is not what you want. Marriage is hard but you can work on things.

Thank you for your encouragement - I could deal with the untidiness if he didn't talk to me like the way he sometimes does. And it really isn't all the time. I am a bit of a doormat - I need to work on myself that way

"I won't be spoken to like that. Conversation over." Leave the room.

Unlike everyone else who says LTB I do think it's possible he could change. I say this because my DH was rather similar when we first got together - and I've trained him not to be! I come from a very relaxed family and he comes from a very anal, nit picking, critical family. I can see he's just a product of his upbringing and despite this annoying characteristic of his, he is actually a nice, kind man! I had to make it very clear to my DH that I wouldn't put up with his nit-picking. I said that his little critical comments were far more damaging to our relationship than whatever minor thing he was complaining about. Of course he didn't just stop overnight - it takes time to change such ingrained habits. Over time he has changed though. Now his critical comments are very few and far between. While I was "training" him I would literally point out every little criticism he made. I'd say "See, this is what I'm talking about. Was that comment really necessary?
You know it hurts my feelings so why did you say it?". Things are much better now. If he hasn't changed I would have left.

@SallyWD

Unlike everyone else who says LTB I do think it's possible he could change. I say this because my DH was rather similar when we first got together - and I've trained him not to be! I come from a very relaxed family and he comes from a very anal, nit picking, critical family. I can see he's just a product of his upbringing and despite this annoying characteristic of his, he is actually a nice, kind man! I had to make it very clear to my DH that I wouldn't put up with his nit-picking. I said that his little critical comments were far more damaging to our relationship than whatever minor thing he was complaining about. Of course he didn't just stop overnight - it takes time to change such ingrained habits. Over time he has changed though. Now his critical comments are very few and far between. While I was "training" him I would literally point out every little criticism he made. I'd say "See, this is what I'm talking about. Was that comment really necessary? You know it hurts my feelings so why did you say it?". Things are much better now. If he hasn't changed I would have left.

@SallyWD thank you for your encouragement - the problem with writing out my problems is that on the surface, he looks like a bad person which simply isn't true. Having been married twice before I was very careful about who I chose and we are still a good match. But I need tips on training him lol. I think perhaps I will point out every snarky comment he makes as you did.

I'd issue an ultimatum that he attends relationship counselling with you. The issues you describe are awful and you can't continue to live like that.

A slightly off the wall solution is that you stay married but don't live together.

Fuck that shit op. I told my 3rd dh to leave. By text!!
Best day ever!!
Even remarried now!!

He's an adult, he does not need training or you to train him.

Joint counselling is never recommended where there is abuse of any type within the relationship. If counselling is to be at all considered here go on your own.

"I just don't know how to get through to him. When I have talked about separating, he thinks I don't mean it. But I'm beginning to."

So you are upset a lot, you cry about his behaviours and have even discussed separating with him. So, you are already half way out the door already. So what if it will be your third divorce. Better than spending your autumn years angry, resentful and crying your way through the rest of your life. You can try and change him but its unlikely to happen. You already know he goes back to his old ways as he has tried to change before.

When you tell them you are separating most people will just say "oh sorry to hear that" and get on with their lives. Dont worry about what other people think, its you who is suffering. Stop suffering and walk away. I will guarantee this wont get any better at all. Just be free and perhaps be alone from now on. Marriage seems to not give you happiness. Try life alone from now on you will be so much happier and fulfilled. Good luck OP.

So you bottle stuff up then explode and you are "over sensitive".

He feels insecure about his his living space so subconsciously spreads his possessions around and nit picks, probably learned behaviour from childhood or maybe another sign of insecurity?

This isn't a lost cause - you just both need to learn about your styles of communication and how to ask for what you want (need) in an adult and realistic way.

Try these articles;

www.theschooloflife.com/thebookoflife/how-to-argue-in-relationships/

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/emotional-fitness/201905/10-tips-constructive-arguments-your-loved-one

I think counseling together would be the best course of action for your relationship and perhaps separate counseling alone for his own stuff.

MysticHare

Re your earlier comment:-
"I left both of them. First H was self pitying and utterly selfish. Second H was also selfish and verbally abusive. I fell massively out of love with both of them"

All credit to you for doing this; that cannot have been easy at all. But what has happened here is that you basically went from one abuser to yet another (which is a not uncommon scenario when women are in abusive relationships) and in the shape of this man now, a further abuser. These men do not have to hit you to hurt you. These men also were not horrible all the time; if they were no-one would want to be with. All these men showed and are showing you now is the nice/nasty cycle of abuse and that is a continuous one. It does make me also wonder what you learnt about relationships when you were growing up. What sort of a relationship example did your parents show you?.

I am certain that none of these men are "bad" people, well they would like to think that of themselves in any case. Such abusive people too can be quite plausible to those in the outside world, it is behind closed doors that their true nature emerges.

"I don't mind being single - I just don't want to throw this marriage away as I did previously, because, for all his faults, when we're great, we're fantastic. I love him dearly."

I am wondering here if you are at all confusing love with codependency. This may be worth looking into.

Don't get bogged down here in your sunk costs re this thinking about throwing a marriage away. There are two ways to understand this process, both involving avoidance. One is an avoidance of disappointment or loss when something doesn’t work out. When a relationship doesn’t succeed, especially after a long period, especially after many shared experiences and especially after developing a hope that the relationship would be a good one, it is a loss. It is a loss of what might have been and an acknowledgement that a part of one’s life has been devoted to this endeavour.

Another angle to evaluate is that focus on “sunk cost” creates a distraction from one’s inner truth. The sentence often goes like, “I’ve already invested to much, so I can’t notice my thoughts and feelings that are telling me to end or change this relationship.”

This is a type of insidious defense against noticing yourself. You enter into a neglectful relationship with yourself which divorces you from your inner thoughts and the quiet feelings that might guide you in your life. In other words, thinking about what already has been may prevent you from deciding what you want your life to be.

If you've never looked at the Freedom Programme I would urge you to do this online and asap. Again abusive men are not horrible the entire time to their chosen target but the nice/nasty cycle of abuse is a continuous one and he will be nasty to you again in time.

Joint counselling is never recommended where there is abuse of any type within the relationship. Abuse is NOT a relationship problem nor is it a problem regarding communication of a perceived lack of. Its about power and control.

This type of therapy assumes the concept of mutuality in the relationship and that the problems are based on a systemic problem between the two parties. Couples counseling helps people with conflict resolution, communication problems, childhood issues brought to the relationship and struggles with intimacy.

In an abusive relationship, mutual goals cannot be attained because the abusive member is not interested in equality. Couples counseling sends the message to both the batterer (batterer can be physical, emotional, and/or psychological in nature) and his partner that the problem is mutual and that somehow the partner is responsible (at least in part) for the abuser's behaviours. Both members of the partnership are taught to focus on their feelings when in couples counseling. This approach is counterproductive in an abusive relationship because the abuser spends too much time already focusing on his feelings and not enough time focusing on other peoples feelings (particularly his partners).

[quote Sarahlou63]So you bottle stuff up then explode and you are "over sensitive".

He feels insecure about his his living space so subconsciously spreads his possessions around and nit picks, probably learned behaviour from childhood or maybe another sign of insecurity?

This isn't a lost cause - you just both need to learn about your styles of communication and how to ask for what you want (need) in an adult and realistic way.

Try these articles;

www.theschooloflife.com/thebookoflife/how-to-argue-in-relationships/

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/emotional-fitness/201905/10-tips-constructive-arguments-your-loved-one[/quote]
Thank you

@thetinsoldier

I wonder why he's been divorced before... are you sure it was his partner who was abusive???

I'd get rid. This is who he is. He's telling you clearly.

Don't waste any more time with him.

Women can be abusive and the OP has already said she's seen evidence