Realising your mum is toxic

[Sugarandshine]

I would say MIL is quite toxic and probably a narcissist. Obviously I’m in no position to diagnose her, but she meets all the criteria I’ve seen online, and it would explain a lot.

Whatever the label is, She’s very cruel to DH and all his siblings, constantly belittling and criticising them, playing them off against each other, she will make cruel jokes about their insecurities, comment on which siblings she likes best and least, and what she dislikes about each of them.
If Ive ever (politely) said anything, (just things like I don’t think that’s very nice to say about SIL, or BIL may find that hurtful) MIL will fly into a rage, swear, smash things around, cry, suggest I’m saying she’s a bad mum, or I’m picking on her (I promise I’m not!!) And I’m asked by DH and siblings to just keep quiet to keep the peace.

There are also small things that are all (in my opinion) part of this cycle of being cruel, then dangling a carrot of love/kindness, before being cruel again.
Because she’s sometimes ‘nice’ they think that’s the real her, and they excuse and minimise the bad. But the ‘nice’ version only ever comes when she’s getting exactly what she wants or she’s gone too far and someone is unhappy with her. No one seems to have noticed this pattern or they’re ignoring it.

They all say there’s no point talking to her (about any of her behaviour) as she doesn’t listen, and it only makes her worse.

Was there something that made you realise your mum wasn’t very nice? Do you think it would’ve been better to just not know?
I don’t want to just say ‘your mum is toxic!’ Because I don’t want to create a problem between us, or hurt him more by being mean about his mum.
I just feel so sad that his own mother is so cruel to him, and he must think he deserves to be treated that way since he allows it to happen? Or he just doesn’t want to rock the boat?

Just a hopeful bump for any advice on how to manage this better?

Tldr - MIL is cruel to DH and he doesn’t notice the patterns of cruelty, and minimises her behaviour / blames himself

Sadly I think he will have to work this out for himself. You need to be there for him, but if you try to say anything you it may backfire on you. My mother was similar but only when no one else was around, anyone apart from me my father and then step father would think she was lovely. In the end I got to a point where I couldn't take any more and stopped seeing her. Hopefully the more time he spends with you and sees what a normal relationship is like he will start to see how toxic she is and be able to make some changes. Good luck.

Thank you, we have been together 10 years and I’ve only just realised myself in the last year or so. She is very charming outside of FIL, dh and his siblings and now me too.

I am worried it will back fire so you’re probably right, but it’s just so hard to sit there with a plastered on smile whilst she is rude about him, or about me now. We are TTC and I think I’m starting to worry about future DC and trying to deal with this with a DH who doesn’t fully realise what’s happening, which is why it’s coming up.

I’m sorry you had to go through that with your own mum

You may be better not leaving any children you have alone with his mother I certainly was not happy leaving mine with my mother she was physically abusive to me while I was growing up. Does he talk about what his childhood was like? It took a long time to tell my husband what my mother was like. I felt ashamed and thought it was my fault because that's what she used to tell me. Try talking about you own childhood and ask about his don't be judgemental he may start to see that his mother ways are not normal.

My partner’s mother is horrific. She’s so subtle about it though that he doesn’t notice. She does dote on him but makes nasty bitchy comments to me, my kids and my parents when they meet or is just dismissive of anything someone she deems lesser says. The irony is when drunk she tells us all how horrible her mother was and how she had to protect her son from his granny’s bad behaviour and doesn’t recognise the same in herself.
I pity the woman to be honest. She can’t have much love in her life when she acts like that.

@Nicklebox thanks, my worry is how unreasonable I’ll seem as they think she’s harmless or they say things like ‘yeah that was a bit annoying but what can you do’ when she’s just absolutely destroyed them for 45mins.
It’s a sort of ‘oh what’s she like’ approach, like they have to pretend they don’t even mind.
I’m just ‘making a fuss’ or ‘being sensitive’

@Alpenguin

My partner’s mother is horrific. She’s so subtle about it though that he doesn’t notice. She does dote on him but makes nasty bitchy comments to me, my kids and my parents when they meet or is just dismissive of anything someone she deems lesser says. The irony is when drunk she tells us all how horrible her mother was and how she had to protect her son from his granny’s bad behaviour and doesn’t recognise the same in herself. I pity the woman to be honest. She can’t have much love in her life when she acts like that.

Oh no! MIL also describes her ‘horrible’ mother, with all the descriptors I would use to describe her. Whilst telling us she’s absolutely not like that. Sorry you’re dealing with that! Does DH stand up for you?

My FIL did this to my DH. I called him out on it many times which did not go down well but I thought it was important that someone stood up to him and I don't regret it.

FIL said the same about his parents... and the cycle goes on sadly.

My own mum.is toxic. I wish I had never figured that out.

MIL is very fond of a manipulative cry and playing her offspring against each other. Both the offspring know. They dont say anything which is a shame as my bil is probably the only person alive she would listen to. He wants a easy life so i cant blame him

I have a difficult mother but to the outside world she would come across as out outspoken. Lively and possibly funny???

But she is manipulative. Craves attention. Mocks and makes racist nasty comments. Even If she meets a new baby she will laugh after that it was ugly or looks like an alien. She puts everyone down. She lives on benefits and lies in bed all day. Anyone who does anyone with their life is a snob. She constantly plays me and my siblings against each other. Creates drama and craves attention

All said - your dh needs to deal with this. You will become a scapegoat. I would keep quiet and avoid her as much as possible.

I could have written your post! My MIL is like this. DH didn't see it to begin with, but she caused a massive problem in our relationship and push came to shove - I told him what I thought was happening, he kind of ignored it to begin with/didn't want to believe it, but then she kept doing other things that only backed up what I said. to begin with I just asked him to question things, just to question why, not to believe her immediately, etc. and eventually he now sees what I see. he sees that his childhood was abusive, particularly now we have a DS. we never leave DS alone with MIL or FIL and never will, and he fully supports that. its difficult. really really difficult. there's a website/forum called coming out of the fog (I think) - fog stands for Fear, Oppression and Guilt

@Grimbelina

My FIL did this to my DH. I called him out on it many times which did not go down well but I thought it was important that someone stood up to him and I don't regret it.

Did DH appreciate it? If he is ‘happy’ with the set up I’m worried I am rocking the boat and damaging their relationship. Just because it’s not what I would want- who am I to say the relationship he has with his mother is ‘wrong’ (That’s my internal panic when I’m not sure if I’m being reasonable when I do say something and it blows up)

@IncessantNameChanger why do you wish you didn’t know?

also to add, DH is glad to be able to see what is truly going on /what his mother is like. because it has actually allowed him to evade quite a lot of drama. he can often predict what she is up to and simply avoid it, because he knows what she is trying to get him to do/hoping he will do - this is often linked to sibling drama and playing them off each other. we now have a relationship with the inlaws where we see them a few times a year, its very civil, even friendly and kind of fun. but the minute MIL starts to cause trouble, we just back away/lower contact with them. Previously DH would have got pulled into various arguments and and is glad he can avoid those now.

@Pegasussnail definitely a few similarities there! How would you find it if a DP said something to you about this? Or stood up for you to your mum?

Thank you @lochmaree I have said things like, do you think that’s ok? Could you imagine saying that to (future) DC? Maybe I can keep going with that? What other things did you raise with him? We’ve had huge arguments about her behaviour throughout our relationship, he always agrees shes ‘wrong’ but wants to keep the peace, or minimises it as just this one thing and I can’t tell if he just wants me to shut up so he doesn’t have to deal with it, or if he really can’t see the bigger picture. I’ll have a look at that website thank you

Yes, about 5 years ago i asked my mum twice not to do something that would affect me, and she went ahead and did it anyway, then when i was really hurt, she was so angry and indignant that i told her she hurt me
She threw herself up on the cross and was the victim of me. Drafted in my father and brother to be angry with me. Lots of "we love you but we cant cope with yr behavior" comments.

I finally thought at that point, this level of not caring that you hurt your daughter is not normal.

B3fore id always thought i was failing to make myself understood.

But that incident finally showed me that her anger at my telling her that she hurt me indicated some core belief that it was impossible that she could hurt me.

I just do not have the right in her eyes. She owns me.

He once stood up to my mum. We were not long married (he didn't know what they were like)
He just said 'don't you think you are being hard on pegasus?'

My father screamed and went mad at him the next time he visited. My brother who I confided in showed my mother the text conversation.
Anyway we didn't visit for a long time after that. At the moment no contact for different reasons

Id so love a strong partner in my corner who would stand up for me.

I know im strong and im in my own corner but because there's one of me and parents are such a unit, backed up by my brother, i feel so invalidated and eroded by them.

My ex MIL is a full blown narcissist but my ex doesn't see it. He's got a few siblings and only one of them realises and have gone NC with her and is in counselling. Ex has huge issues because of this and probably the reason why he was so insecure, didn't trust etc and why our relationship broke. I would be very wary having kids with him if he doesn't realise it.

I came to this realisation about my own parents over the course of the pandemic - distance created by lockdowns helped give me the space to see things clearly. I know what you are saying about whether it's worth it to know or not. I have found it really painful and very sad. I've been having some quite intense therapy to help and I do feel that I am getting to a healthier place. There is a part of me that feels it was all just easier when I thought it was normal, but in reality it wasn't easier it was just as hard but in different ways. I am glad I know now because now I can recognise that this awful cycle needs to end with me. I have 2 kids myself and the thought of them enduring the same as I did just devastates me so it's good that I am aware and can try my absolute best to recognise and correct these unhealthy dynamics. Noone escapes this kind of upbringing without fleas. Its now my responsibility to do better for my kids and for my partner - and for myself. Because I am important too. I don't know if I would have come to this realisation by someone else telling me, though. I had to come to it on my own. In fact, part of what helped me was moving closer to my DH family and being involved in regular family dinners, get together etc. Seeing a healthy, normal family interact and support each other as though it was no big deal was actually quite shocking for me.

@Sugarandshine I think its OK to say what you need to, this is your life too and they are affecting it. we had so many huge arguments, our relationship was rock bottom. we've since had a child and even during that tough first year, it never got nearly as bad as when his mum was causing trouble/he was engaging with her. yes mine would agree she's wrong but not want to say anything. I think it is a slow process, for my DH it started with getting the idea in his head, get him thinking about it, and over time he started to change his opinion and eventually he started to actually "answer back" to her and we worked together to find strategies that worked for us both. i also sent him articles that I thought might help him see it and also how to manage his relationship with his mother. I told him it was important to me that he read them.

there is also a book I think about toxic parents, and one about toxic inlaws or family. I cant remember the exact titles sorry but I read them and found them helpful!

so far we haven't had to say anything to DS as he's just shy of 2, but I think we will just strategically manage contact so that he's never alone, rather than explain why, unless we have to. also we are preparing for change as DS is currently their only grandchild, but SIL is currently pregnant and other SIL is ttc so the opportunities for playing the GCs off each other will be there (she already does it to some degree between our DS and SILs dogs ) so I imagine she'll be worse with children. we will re evaluate at that point! other SIL has already said she'll never leave her DC with them.

It is very common for narcissistic, toxic people to show a completely different face to the world that when in private.

My toxic mother was always angry, swearing, shouting, manipulating, lying, making threats of physical violence and sometimes hitting me, putting the phone down on people who said no to her demands and so on. She was constantly gossiping and criticising other family members and making up stories. She was a neglectful parent too.

But to the rest of the world she presented herself as a harmless, sweet , often helpless woman.

As she became older the mask started to slip though on occasions and she started insulting people in public. When she was selling her house the estate agent told me that he had been shocked and appalled when she started swearing at him out of nowhere. He was a good guy who was doing everything he could to help her.

The point is these people are very good at manipulating their close family and it is especially hard for a child to see and accept that their parent's behaviour is not right because they have been conditioned to see it as normal all their life,

Usually if you try to tell something like this to tone it down their response if to say that you are 'too sensitive' or that you are making things up...

I made the choice not to have any contact with this toxic relative but it took a while to realise how much harm she had done to my mental and physical health.

If you have kids, you don't want your MIL to be able to affect their confidence and self-esteem.

I would limit contact with her but continue to stand up to her so she knows you can't be pushed around.

@Eatingjumper we have actually moved closer to my parents and I am hoping that helps but when we see them I notice MIL gets very needy around the time if she knows we’re going. And DH almost ends up ‘punished’ but again he hasn’t noticed.

@lochmaree does MIL not say anything? I know mine once she realises my mum is allowed to see them more / unsupervised will start making comments. Typically when she’s unhappy with something this will be a passive agressive comment once or twice a week, growing to be 4 or comments, calls or texts a day about it. Until DH says we should give her what she wants because we’re being unreasonable to be ‘putting up this much of a fight’ over something. I have tried to point out that she is the one creating this fight, and that in itself is unreasonable but then he says two wrongs don’t make a right so we have to do what she wants, because we are being difficult.

Interesting point about the dogs! MIL does this too. I noticed and thought I was crazy for caring, they don’t know what she’s saying, but it’s just so weird!

@ElectraBlue I’m sorry you had to put up with this! MIL is not as overt as this even, there’s only shouting swearing etc when she’s challenged, the rest of the time it’s just indirect insults, ‘jokey’ conversations, just a comment because she just ‘says it how it is’ but always as you say, we are too sensitive if we are unhappy.

My MIL has some similarities but DH understands it well so I can share my feelings freely and it helps him feel validated. He struggles at times but has developed a great approach when she says something cryptic and cutting he translates it in front of her ‘oh look, mum is saying I am useless for having a lie in’ when she says ‘good morning’ pointedly if he sleeps in a bit. Thats a crap example but she is constantly criticising in these veiled ways, and you can tell exactly when she thinks you are a piece of shit. I think this helps him with a lot of the frustration but I’m not confrontational enough to do it.