Family and disrespected boundaries

[Elderflowerie]

I really don't want to fall out with my mum but I'm unsure how to move forward now? I really don't want to be upset with each other over Christmas but also, I need to keep my boundaries clear and firm. I'm not sure what to do?

Basically, my mum visits every 3 weeks, or once a month or so after she decided to move away a few years ago. This would be great if she didn't refuse to give us a day or time of arrival and didn't just turn up as and when she wants to. I'm separated from but living with my husband for an interim period and these visits are creating more tension and unpredictability when it's the last thing I need.

Two weekends ago, she arranged to visit, I called her on the day she was supposedly arriving, but she hadn't left yet at 11am and it takes 2.5 hours to travel. I asked for an approximate ETA and she said no, she couldn't give one. I said that I was getting really tired of these visits now and have two young children to consider and other people to see and things to do. She then spat her dummy out childishly and said "I'm not coming then."

I was booked in for an operation the following morning- quick and minor but needed her to collect me from the hospital as previously arranged. Because she didn't visit, I had to make other arrangements and rely on my ex to collect me along with organising last minute childcare for the children for 1.5 hours. I was really upset.

Since then, we haven't really spoken much but she did try to talk things through with me. I explained that I was really hurt and didn't think things could move forward without an apology from her and a commitment for her to stop arriving as and when she pleases with very little communication. She told me this was not possible for her and that she "can't be held to times." She then sent me this weird message full of riddles about not liking what you have to hear sometimes and life being complicated. She tends to take a spiritual, cryptic stance when she can't put properly into words what she needs to say and wants to skirt around the issues.

When she does visit she's of very little help anyway and I find it hard having to entertain her on top of all my other jobs such as cooking and cleaning as I work during the week and have a toddler at home with me. She can't take the children out on her own as her mobility is no good either.

I decided yesterday to put our issues aside and video called her with my toddler but she was very short with me and cried when it was time to say goodbye to DC. I came off the phone wondering why I had bothered and feeling worse that she hasn't apologised and thinks that she's completely right about everything. My sister has nothing to do with her because she says she's selfish and I don't want to reduce to this at all, but I'm starting to see what she means. I don't want to NC, but I'm quite shocked at her.

We tried visiting her during the summer but couldn't stay at her house after her and her boyfriend adopted an illegal dog which I'm having nowhere near the children. We had to pay a fortune in hotels.

I really don't know what to do to continue a relationship with my mum?

Having a healthy relationship with a narcissist is impossible. Your sister has already figured this out.

Sometimes she can be empathetic but this latest outburst has thrown me.

I wouldn't mind so much if she just said sorry, it's the pig headedness that has really upset me.

It’s all about her isn’t it? It’s impossible with someone like this. Google grey rock. Start surrounding yourself with positive people. Minimise contact. Resolve to learn never to do this to your kids

She will always put herself first, you need to do the same.

I think going forward you need to just put plans in place for the weekend eg Saturday morning we will be at the cinema from 9 until 11 and then we will be home until 3 to 5 when Mark has a birthday party and say it would be lovely to see her around those times.

I think your sister has the right approach. It isn't unreasonable to want to be kept informed of arrival times/days and there's nothing 'spiritual' about 'not being held to times'. It's just rude and selfish.

Ask yourself whether your mum brings anything positive to your life and decide accordingly.

@pointythings I'm quite spiritual myself, so yes, nothing at all against spiritual people. I'm really describing the wording of her text message when I use that word, it's her way of saying something whilst really saying nothing of any practical use. Agreed, it is rude and selfish.

Judging by her facebook page, she's grandmother of the year which really annoys me.

She has brought a lot of emotional support to my life via phone whilst going through my separation and been at the other end when I've felt lonely which makes me reluctant to NC.

I agree with @pointythings. You've got to think what does she really bring your life? If it's more negative than positive it might be time to go NC. Doesn't mean it has to be forever but if both her children don't speak to her maybe that'll make me realise she's the problem?

Your mother wants everything on her terms, and has little or no regard for your life.

Letting you down at the last minute before an operation is really bad, and I am not surprised you are hurt.

The only way to 'manage' her is to do things when it suits you, bright and breezy. If she is arriving, then give her a time slot before 11am or after 4pm when we will be at home if you still plan to see her regularly.

I would personally go low contact and allow yourself some happiness! You don't need to freeze her out, just make it a distant relationship and don't ask her for any more favours. Enjoy christmas with your children, let her do what she wants. Your sister has the right idea.

You don’t “have” to go NC. There are other options VLC and LC. If she’s not bringing much positive to your life and you feel mostly worse after dealing with her, what’s the loss really ?

In my experience my very difficult and sometimes abusive mother could be supportive on the phone when I had problems with my teenager. However that meant I (had to also) put up with the other rubbish from her. And looking back I could have tried to get support elsewhere or just suck it up. In the end I think her input wasn’t of great value though.

So, what the answer is only you can decide. Refusing to give a day of arrival is completely ridiculous. Why is she doing that? To keep you on your toes in case of her majesty’s imminent arrival? She’s the one in control? Only you can guess. But it’s obviously a clearly completely unreasonable and haughty attitude.

My immediate recommendation is to let her stew in her own “flounce” and silent treatment. You can have weeks months or even longer of peace. PS WELL DONE for calling her out and also requesting an apology. Stick to your guns! She will basically back down on her unreasonable and unpleasant behaviour or take a hike. Her choice. Take control. Don’t let her play mind games either (the crying to the GC etc))

As a side note:
Why is she such a saviour when it comes to other people and so crap for us? She has taken her boyfriend's kids for operations several times, lifts to work when cars breakdown. At work, she's considerered to be everyone's rescuer too. But she just can't /won't do it for us. I remember her being Aunt of the year to my cousins on my Dad's side too, but we were always an afterthought.

She gets rounds of applause and back slaps for 'helping' others and lots of attention, mothers don't tend to get that just for normal parenting, so there is nothing in it for her.

Please don't let her play with your children's emotions by crying on the phone, it really isn't fair to them. Keep them as far away from her as possible or they will become another tool for her to use.

She is certainly not mother of the year, so who cares what she does elsewhere. Where it really matters she is failing spectacularly.

Get some counselling, go to others for support and don't get her anymore power. Every time you open up you are playing back into her hands. Just be calm, kind and very very distant. It has worked like a dream for eight years. Every now and then we get an attention seeking eruption, I just say nothing and nod along and ignore.

Your children really do need to come first and ignore your mother's drama op.

If you are going to maintain a relationship with her you need to stop relying on her. By relying on her you are giving her power over you. Just stop.

If she won't give you a time or date then carry on as normal, if you're not at home when she arrives then, so be it. Stop entertaining her, if you've made plans with the dc, continue to do those plans, if she's not able to join you, then so be it.

What Fairylights wrote here.

If she is too toxic/difficult/batshit for YOU to deal with, its the same deal for your children too. Put yourself and your kids first now. You will also need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

I think she’s nicer to other people also because as her mere daughter - you are nothing or next to nothing. You should do as you’re told and suck it up if you dont like her rudeness because she’s the parent she’s the boss. She’s the boss of you in her mind and you aren’t worth much in the way or help or respect .

Elderflowerie

Regular people with healthy levels of empathy are generally helpful and thoughtful people. They genuinely care about and like helping others. Narcissists, on the other hand, don't have that motivation since they lack empathy. Yet, by being or appearing to be helping and caring, a narcissist can get others to thank them and cheer them on for being such a nice person. This is what motivates them: validation that they are wonderful.

Whether they actually help others or how these people really feel is irrelevant to the narcissist. What matters is getting narcissistic supply, and getting it sometimes involves acting in a helping and caring manner.

Being a good person, or rather appearing as one publicly, can generate fame and boost a narcissists public image. Since narcissists are very interested in social status and influence, they use acts of generosity to appear noble and kind.

I think such people see their adult children as kind of ‘servants’ or people who must always submit to their wishes - a kind of queen bee syndrome. They can be like with others too IME (imperious or over familiar with waiters) but mostly know how to behave with acquaintances in a much more supportive and amenable way. It can be gutting for the adult child to see this at times, and confusing.

My counsellor has been saying for a while that Mum's visits aren't helping. She was surprised when I told her that she doesn't offer childcare or cooking. She just rocks up. I have counselling because of my separation which has been pending for 2 years now but Mum recently came up. Another counsellor told me a few years ago that she thought she wss quite disrespectful of my time. I placed boundaries in and it worked for a while, but she's back to doing this again claiming that motorways are too unpredictable to be able to commit to times. I've asked why she doesn't leave earlier before the motorway gets busy but she "has stuff to do" apparently. I just don't think she's too motivated to visit and does so out of guilt and obligation if I'm honest.

Empathy isn't her strong point. Looking back over the years at times she should have been more caring. Once a girl in my town was murdered and she couldn't understand why people who didn't know her personally were so bothered by it. I found this weird.

Her own mother has never been caring towards her- I guess she's damaged by that. My sister had a more distant relationship with her growing up. I remember her being good with me at times, but would completely switch off if something more exciting came along-usually a man she fancied.

@Elderflowerie

Sometimes she can be empathetic but this latest outburst has thrown me.

I wouldn't mind so much if she just said sorry, it's the pig headedness that has really upset me.

Well of course she behaves in a positive manner sometimes. If she was consistently badly behaved you'd be able to put up stronger boundaries against her bad behaviour. Perhaps she's learned to modify her behaviour since your sister distanced herself. 🌹

@Elderflowerie

My counsellor has been saying for a while that Mum's visits aren't helping. She was surprised when I told her that she doesn't offer childcare or cooking. She just rocks up. I have counselling because of my separation which has been pending for 2 years now but Mum recently came up. Another counsellor told me a few years ago that she thought she wss quite disrespectful of my time.

Time to reassert those strong boundaries and keep them up. She will find every chink in your defences so be alert - especially around your DC.

Someone mentioned "grey rock" also - I think you should learn how that works and apply it to your mother, as well as anyone else who behaves like her.

Do, please, listen to your counsellor and to your own good sense, and don't let this woman keep manipulating you. If you keep letting her behave this way to you things will never improve for you. 🌹

Yes agree, nice sometimes - or at least not unpleasant.

In my case though, years down the line, I came to a realisation that even when she wasn’t being directly unpleasant, she was mostly v “disengaged” somehow, more like a distant great aunt. I never really experienced her being genuinely positive or joyful with me (though she could be more exuberant with others, whether this was an act or not I do t know)). She also caused me significant damage by deliberately sabotaging me a few times. Most of her life she was only interested in her own life and took zero interest in mine. She mellowed a bit with age on this one, as less others around, but her raging remained to the extent I would not deal with it anymore. I don’t know what is best for you to do OP, as your experience may be v different, but you can use this time to relax and chill, and also strengthen your boundaries if you still want to stay in contact.

I know it's no consolation to you but my sister and I would complain to each other about our mum whose ideas and attitude would rub us up the wrong way. Mum died of cancer when I was a young adult, and she never new her grandchildren (my DC). My heart broke when we lost her and I would dearly love to have her back. #justsaying. Sometimes it's easy to criticize family but oh so painful when they are gone.

I'm so sorry you lost your mum @alphavilla. I often think that it's a shame mine doesn't take up the opportunities to have a close relationship with us whilst she can.

alpha That works both ways, ops mother should be making some effort, taking care of her family, caring for her child - but she doesn't. It doesn't seem to matter much to her about the passage of time.
Losing your parent as a young adult must have been incredibly hard, but op's situation is different, her mother is alive and does not seem to care, and that will hurt deeply as well.

op isn't criticising, she is simply saying she finds her mother overbearing and uncaring, and most of us agree. Her healthy place would be a low contact relationship to protect herself and her children. Are you suggesting she doesn't do that? Just asking.

Why is she such a saviour when it comes to other people and so crap for us? She has taken her boyfriend's kids for operations several times, lifts to work when cars breakdown. At work, she's considered to be everyone's rescuer too.

The saviour act works a lot better on people who only know one side of her. She gets a nice, pure hit of gratitude and respect from people who think she is perfectly wonderful.

You, on the other hand, know she's not perfectly wonderful. You know she is wonderful when it suits her and terrible when it doesn't.

If she can put a little effort into helping out someone with an idealised view of her, she will, because she'll get a nice big hit of praise and admiration in return.

You, on the other hand, have a less idealised view of her, and possibly the crazy and entitled (in her opinion) view that she should help you out just because you're family. Well, that's not going to provide a very satisfactory hit of praise and admiration in return for her generosity, is it?

The hardest thing to get your head around with narcissists is they literally don't care about anyone but themselves.