Narcs and friendship

[DaisyNGO]

there wasn't really a right place to put this and it's a bit heavy for "chat"

I've had a few people I thought were good friends vanish from my life, or it seems that way. I'm not a fan of social media although I'm on MN a lot and when trying to make new friends, I often feel I have no idea what people are talking about.

On here, I particularly notice people talking about narcs and I guess a little bit in real life as well.

I watched this

I had no idea who the interviewee was but I somehow got a strange sense I should watch it.

I now get why a couple of friendships have ended. He talks mostly about it affects dating but I think it's been a factor in friendships. I haven't done enough vertical worshipping!!

I also understand a bit more why some people are so awful at work. I used to think it was just about money - I started working life in jobs where bonuses and competition was a big thing - but later I worked in settings where it was less so, and I couldn't understand what the hell was going on.

anyway, I just thought I'd post out of curiosity to see if anyone watched it and had any thoughts.

I have long thought there's an issue with online culture bleeding into real life and now I think, it's not just me being grumpy - it has done that. The oldest friends, the longest standing ones, seem like the best relationships because they were started on a more genuine footing.

and people are so used to "what we are not allowed to say" that a lot of this stuff is unsaid?

Am I making any sense to anyone?!

I bloody love Richard grannon. I haven't watched this particular video but he's incredibly concise and quite brutal when it comes to explaining narcissistic behaviour and your responsibility to yourself (to protect yourself and hold good boundaries)

I don't know anything about him - phwoar though - but having looked him up, he seems to have a lot of material on PTSD. This is another term I feel comes up at odd times. My friends and my doctor thought I had it after a hospital thing, but I have chronic health issues and just thought, oh well, that was nasty, I'll recover.

I do feel that there's a lot of buzzwords and terminology around that I'm misunderstanding though.

It's very rare for me to find any benefit in theory and philosophy but some things that were baffling me about former friends now make sense.

I also thought that a narc was a really bad person but now I see I've probably misunderstood that too.

General question for the wise folk here

Are people just supposed to accept now that no one says what they mean or means what they say?

And the idea is that a social life and fun can still be built on that?

I also made a fool of myself in a potential work context today. I genuinely don't know if I've been used a pawn to get a good outcome or if I have screwed something up for someone.

Never heard of Richard but very impressed by this video.
Will be watching more of his videos for sure.

I also now know why those small comedy clubs make me feel uncomfortable. Only went a few times in my life but remember them for that reason.

I guess no one else watched it...😂
The narc thing seems to come up a lot on MN so I'm probably having realisations posters had ages ago.

Just managed to watch most of it. I've never noticed him mention the fawn/fight duality before but it really boils down to this when you analyse it. Lovebomb/devalue in the common parlance. They will charm the life out of you in order that you start giving them what they want. Once they have you, you need to just fecking behave and keep up with the program. I've had it with one partner and a couple of friends. Another defining characteristic is if you stop active worship or playing the game and being the supporting role, you are characterised as basically harming them. As he said, horizontal relationships are not only not acceptable they find them grievous. Dont ever think you can rise above the level of serf doing the job of whatever the hell it is they want you doing. Thing is, we all have narcissistic traits, the uncomfortable truth is that what keeps a lot of us tied to these types is that they're offering some kind of validation for something we lack in ourselves and seek outside. Like, my ex. He was essentially a con artist. What he offered in return was physical and emotional attention. He had all the fancy words and nice dinners and listening. It was my narcissistic inclinations that led to me being eventually bled dry.

Its true re relationships these days as well. Online dating for years taught me the overarching thread was that who cares least wins. There might be something better out there. And it wasn't like I didn't have aspects of this about myself either but the entire thing left a very sour taste.

super it sounds like you know a lot about this.

For me, it was more of a general education. In terms of friends who have vanished, I have chronic health issues and they were really helpful. But I think at some point, I stopped giving them "food" and didn't even know.

there is, sadly, some strain between me and my best friend because she is now immensely senior in a tech role which I don't understand and actually don't find interesting. So much as I am happy to try to take an interest, there comes a point where if you don't understand, you can't "give back" in the conversation.

I'm not saying this makes either of us narcissists btw, just that I have to find a way of giving food.

I've never had "fight or fawn" friendships because I don't do rows. But, I realise now I've had a different version - friends who cancel for no reason, usually something better came up - but they properly fawn when they do see you.

Also, some vanished friends were always on at me about not being on WhatsApp or Facebook and I would say things in conversation and they'd reply "oh, I wish you'd join the group" - which actually means "I want you to say that in public on my page so I look better".

As I say, I don't know much about Richard but I got the impression he may be a person who has learned to be happier with his own company which might be something I need to learn too.

I do understand that relationships are all transactional to an extent and also that there's no such thing as a selfless act.

Selfishly what has really helped here was that I am no longer puzzled that a couple of people in particular have vanished. It's not me, I didn't do anything wrong.

in terms of horizontal stuff - this sounds so funny - I have seen posters on MN saying they don't want to accept favours from anyone in case they are asked to do something in return. I guess this might be more common than I thought.

Again, not a criticism, it's just interesting to me because I feel that friendship is very much about helping out in a crisis.

Thing is we all have narcissistic traits, so we all exhibit some of these behaviours. On the whole socially I think we've definitely become far worse.

@supercali77

Thing is we all have narcissistic traits, so we all exhibit some of these behaviours. On the whole socially I think we've definitely become far worse.

Yes, and I occasionally think I need to be more like that because narcissists and psychopaths are generally much happier.

I realise people have a fixed marketing shtick but it's interesting he said they have a very traumatic childhood, I suspect many don't.

I hear the paid for Trig community discussion about this was dominated by "is he single" which is not surprising as he is gorgeous! 😂

Tried to tell my sister about this interview today. Impossible to explain horizontal and vertical relationships with a straight face, especially as she is very Miranda like!

I've just watched all of it. I've been a fan of Triggernometry for a few years but hadn't come across Richard before. Its one of the best interviews I've seen on that channel. I think narcissistic traits and NPD are different things, narc traits are obviously a spectrum with NPD been at the most extreme end.

From personal experience I would say if you've ever been in a relationship with a full blown narc and done some research to try to understand why you were so damaged by the relationship you are in no doubt about what you have been exposed to. Run of the mill arseholes may exhibit narc traits but they don't have quite the same power.

I thought it was more interesting in terms of the societal impact of social media driven narcissism. The points about people treating each other with absolute contempt and distain if they don't conform to the approved narrative felt very accurate about where we are now. I don't see things getting any better, the future of western civilisation feels very uncertain to me.

Civilisations come and go so our decline in itself does not necessarily signal the end of the human race (although climate change may see to that) but I think we have become far too complacent about our (largely) liberal democracies and are not doing nearly enough to protect it. As imperfect as western culture currently is it affords us more freedom than many other places in history and the world today, if we fuck it up it will be bloody.

There was so much in that interview to think about so thanks for sharing it.

FOJN

Glad you enjoyed it

The part where I really gasped was when KK said (paraphrasing) that if you have a narc boss, you can change jobs. I rewound and listened again. He makes it so easy! They're mostly like that! I made that mistake in my early 20s. Luckily I realised the truth of it and my mantra became "bills paid, mouth shut".

I have found some reading about psychopaths at work really helpful but it surprised me that got dismissed so easily. In terms of societal issues, it's one reason I am so pleased by The Great Resignation. I realise the circle will go round in the usual crap way but for now, the idea that so many can tell their bosses to fuck off really pleases me.

Re liberal democracy, that's absolutely crumbling right now.

Great video and this has inspired me to look this guy up and read more of his stuff. Very interesting.

I will look up more of his videos - I have a feeling he's going to make some common sense out of some things that I thought were a bit...not for me.

In other news, I have been watching more Triggernometry and I wish there was something similar with female presenters. I do like them but the constant "jokes" based on female anatomy....

Yeah Grannon always gets those comments 😂 he is hot. Also level headed and down to earth. Very much about personal accountability.

Actually he just did a Liverpool seminar which I happened to catch (i get the emails). In it he and others in the audience talk about radical acceptance or ownership. As in, whatever happens assume you're responsible, remove all victim narrative from yourself. I thought this was pretty interesting from a wider social context. There is a kind of aggrandisement of victimhood happening atm, personal accountability seems to have gone awol to a degree.

super I just had a quick look, put that on my watchlist.

I will add to myself to the email list...does he get people asking to hug him, lol.

I bet he charges a fortune though, and good for him.

It's funny because I have an ex who is big on psychological stuff. He is recording a podcast. He has a beautiful voice which makes you say "ahh, I will listen to this soothing tone" but then it gets very academic. I used to tune out when he talked about anything like this and tbh I still don't know anything about the basics.

I read a book called Snakes in Suits about psychopaths at work, which was really helpful. My ex was the sort who would go deep into why they were like that but I didn't find it helpful in terms of how to cope with them.

Competitive victimhood...another curse of current times, especially when you are meant to be an oppressed minority and don't conform!

Yeah I never really got the point of going into the whys with these types of people. You could obsess over their fucked up family background or their school days but ultimately the bottom line is they are whi they are and you have to deal with them sometimes.

I bet he does get people asking for hugs 😂

This guy’s “5 finger mnemonic” is amazing- I’m pretty sure it “cured” my anxiety disorder. What was most helpful was the framing of anxiety being a physical flashback.

And yes, he’s a beautiful man! I really enjoy his voice. But mostly his work

I did the finger mnemonics for several months as well! Enormously helpful. And the reframing of it as a flashback.

What? This beautiful man has finger exercises?

Jokes aside, I'd be interested if anyone wants to rec any of the videos, he seems to have lots. I am surprised they're not arranged more by topic but this is me not understanding the new world of underlying principles.

Did I need a workplace mentor to explain the Art of Managing Management. I only twigged a lot of important things in my late 20s. I think there was a Desperate Housewives episode when Lynette talked about it and that was a lightbulb moment.

I presume work mentors don't tell the truth or tell you anything helpful though. My dad is in a field where the actual work matters so he finds it confusing and I wondered why he never taught me the political aspect.