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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

1000 replies

Pages · 15/12/2007 10:52

This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

OP posts:
briarrose · 04/01/2008 19:17

oneplusone it sounds like you have so much to deal with at the moment, you are obviously very low too. I don't know if you are anything like me in this respect, but because of the way I was spoken to and treated growing up (and still now) sometimes I am so very hard on myself and am far too sensitive. Despite my best efforts I take things that people say to me far too seriously and constantly. I totally over analyse my behaviour, and sometimes it can really spoil social gatherings. Try and take a step back from things, but don't analyse your relationship with your DH too much, not while you're this low

toomanystuffedbears · 04/01/2008 20:01

Oneplusone-
not much time now

I am down today, too. But I feel I've made a break through for myself.
Your second paragraph could have been written by myself (Fri 04-Jan-08 15:22:04).
By being ridiculed, ignored, dismissed/diminished, unguided, yes-unloved growing up I learned to not want anything (I feel need to qualify that but won't right now). I learned to keep quiet because anything I said would be used to put me down (especially by Middle Sister). Thus my spontaneous communication skills to this day are pathetic-I can not or rarely respond in the moment.
I feel invisible, like I don't exist.

My break through
history first-
3 months after dd was born (ds was 18 mnth) dh was awarded a fellowship to study at a nice university. We sold the house, I (and dc) stayed with my Dad for 7 months, then to the university for 5 months, then back to this town into an apartment for 21 months before moving into our own house. I was too tired, stupid, dutiful wife?, to protest but...
I knew it was important for him to do this (even though he did not finish the program and really didn't say much to me about that )...I didn't/don't want to be the one to hold him back in his career and he really has done well (got a patent last year and meritorious award last month).
So yesterday (I'm 32 weeks pg) he tells me he wants to 'put in for' temporary duty assignment over seas, or on the other side of the country, or where ever else one of these positions is open-they come up every once in a while for two year duration. His chances of getting it are super micro-small as it is a nationwide offering. Even so....
My reflex was sure why not, what the heck? I see the sense of adventure, and the opportunity... I'll only have an infant at 46 ...
Cried half the night and got mad, really mad. His snoring didn't wake himself up but my crying did.
I finally said
I NEED
I need to stay home after the baby comes.
You can not uproot me again with an infant.
(Which was I need to not be uprooted again with an infant.)
He said fine, genuinely, sincerely, we can wait a few years to try for it.

I do exist. I (tears now) do need.
It is topsy turvy because I've been going on and on about Middle Sister's neediness and NPD.

Thanks for listening...
got to go- dd about to get home.

smithfield · 04/01/2008 21:30

Toomany- there is nothing topsy turvy about this, this is about you getting in touch with your true self. The self that got supressed when you were small in lieu of your mother's needs, and the one that remained suppressed by the intimidating presence of middle sister.

This is a breakthrough indeed. Congratulations

kaz33 · 04/01/2008 21:43

Standing up for yourself is so important, like you I have spent my whole life putting other peoples feelings first. Learning to speak up and say NO is so important.

Like you I just recently stood up for myself and told my parents - these are the days that you are going to have our kids. It feels a bit pathetic really.

Sakura · 04/01/2008 23:13

oneplusone, you struck a chord with me when you said that you had just put up with nasty comments and stuff from other people, because at home you'd always had to. I've been thinking about this a lot recently- about how I've put up with things that other people would never have put up with. I had a couple of "close" friends in university, but when I think about some of the cutting, nasty things they've said to me, I'm shocked. Things I would never dare to say, for fear of abandonment, or just because its plain wrong and you will hurt someone's feelings! Not just friends, but teachers too. In school, I remember being always in trouble. I know teachers weren't clued up on abuse then, but oh my god, once when I was talking in class ( in a home ec class, so everyone was scattered around the class doing various things- not sitting neatly at desks), this supply teacher just blew up in my face and kept on and on at me, ranting. She said I was the rudest girl she had ever met in her life. THis has stayed with me until now. I know I probably wasn't the rudest girl she'd ever met- you'd only have to walk to the local bus station or pub to find ruder ones, but she felt that she had the right to say that to me. And I internalised that.
Another one that makes me angry now, is mysoginistic, nasty little men. For example, I remember vague examples as a child of taxi drivers, friends of family?, or other random blokes just saying random nasty things to me, seemingly knowing I would not put them in their place like a feistier girl would. I remember things like "Stop standing there with that silly smile on your face/with your finger up your arse" and other such unecessary nastiness. I know now that those men didn't like themselves very much, to speak to a little girl like that, but at the time of course, I just assumed it was, yet again, me who was flawed and deserving of insults.

Also, I've been thinking, the same as you, about how much of my mother is in me. I know there is some of me on that NPD list that smithfield posted . Actually that list was good in that respect because it alerted me to some of my behaviour. THis makes me wonder how much of NPD is learned behaviour. For example, my mother always used to asked me to do chores when it suited her and I had to drop everything, rather than just asking me to do certain things in the morning. I found that I do this with DH! Just ask him to drop what he's doing to come and help me move something. To be fair, he's an adult though, and if it irritated him, he could have said something. But it has alerted me to that, and I'm going to try to be more considerate of him. I just never considered it to be something "wrong" because I'd always had it done to me. Stupid I know, but I just never put two and two together.

Sakura · 04/01/2008 23:20

oneplusone, regarding your MIL, go back to the other thread and read my problems with mine. She is highly toxic- ticks all the boxes, and yet, being a very beautiful, charismatic woman, gets away with murder. Unlike my mother, she doesn't rage, but ooh, she does everything in a snidey underhand way. DH always used to take her side. We very nearly divorced because of her. I needed him to see my POV. I believed I was in the wrong for ages too, but then something just snapped. Nowadays, DH doesn'T quite "get" why I don't like his mother, but he knows there are problems there, and whatever his feelings on it, he tries to support me as much as possible. I know he sometimes thinks its me thats causing problems, because he'll defend her. I want to ask him "why don't you have any relationship with your brother? Why do you listen to her when she slags off your brother- her son? Is this normal?" But he can't see it- he doesn't want to look at her flaws because I think he's scared of what he might find. He's scared of facing the pain she must have caused him as a child

Sakura · 04/01/2008 23:30

Oh, I also just read your post about physical symptoms. For about 5 years I had strange unexplained digestive problems. I could't eat a lot of things, and I'd only be able to eat a tiny bit of a meal before feeling full. I'd feel hungry later, then have to snack. I could feel and hear my stomach having problems digesting the food after each meal.
It has gone away now, which is amazing, and connected to these issues, I feel.

Pages · 05/01/2008 13:14

Just skimming through again... Oneplusone, when it all started with my family ganging up on me, I couldn't eat or sleep for weeks, lost half a stone in weight and developed psoryiasis (sp?) all over my arms and legs.

OP posts:
jenk1 · 05/01/2008 14:23

hello to everyone hope you all had a nice xmas and new year, ive only just skimmed through the thread and will reply more later.

just an update.

Its now been 3 weeks since i had words with my mum and she hasnt asked to see the kids, since the first weekend.
she has my niece nearly every day and has babysat my other 2 nieces over the xmas holidays, my 2 who are both autistic nothing, hasnt phoned or anything.

xdh went to change his flight to my sisters name the other day and he said she was fawning all over him, im SO sorry you arent coming etc, this after bitching about him so much to me, dont let him in your house etc etc.
me and xdh are getting along really well, he apologised for being an arse and since nearly 2 weeks ago has been really good with the kids and being nice to me.

she HATES it that i get along with xdh and when we were speaking kept sowing seeds of doubt in my mind over him.

it will be killing her that ive not been in touch cos thats what she is waiting for as i usually do but not this time.

im on the depressed threads atm cos it has made me really depressed but i feel stronger and more respect for myself for not giving in.

hugs to all
jen
x

Earlybird · 05/01/2008 14:31

Anyone have experience of how to navigate the emotional minefield of chronic and fatal illness in a toxic parent?

Mum is in end stage cancer - perhaps another 3 months to live. My solution of 'keep it all at arm's length' is impossible atm, as there are all sorts of practical issues to sort - care, finances, etc - that throw us (me, sisters, Mum) together.

I keep wondering if there are any 'resolution' type conversations I want to/should have with Mum. But the realistic part of me knows nothing can be mended after so many years, and countless big/small incidents which she is oblivious to. It's likely to upset us both deeply, and accomplish nothing. And perhaps she simply needs to live her final weeks/months at peace - however much 'acting/pretending' that requires from me.

I don't know what to say to her/my sisters, and don't know what to feel. The healthy reality I've strived to create for myself and dd gets sucked into the emotionally distorted 'hall of mirrors' that is my family whenever we all get together. Very confusing, disorienting and upsetting.

oneplusone · 05/01/2008 14:57

Thank you once again Sakura, Pages and TMSB for your supportive advice and comments. I have so much going on in my head I don't know where to start with writing it all down. I sometimes find it so hard to process all my thoughts and emotions whilst trying to deal with day to day life and 2 demanding DC's.

Sakura re toxic MIL, yes I have read through most of the previous thread and I do remember you mentioning problems with your MIL and this leading to problems with your DH. My MIL sounds very similar to yours in that she does not rant and rage, but she makes nasty, cutting, hurtful comments in a sly but charming way, so sometimes you almost don't realise she's said something nasty until a while later when it's too late to respond. Not that i would have dared respond until recently nor would i have known how to respond as i am so used to just keeping quiet whenever someone is nasty or tactless with me.

I can very much relate to you when you say your DH doesn't really see how his mother is toxic and also he perhaps just doesn't want to face up to his own childhood truth. I have suspected this with my own DH. He always seems uncomfortable and reluctant to listen to me whenever i talk about my family issues and i have wondered whether listening to me brings up his own issues from his childhood. I am fairly sure that deep down he has been hurt by his mother as from my perspective she clearly favours my DH's younger brother and is always singing his praises whereas she only seems to have critcism and put downs for my DH. I think my DH is still now, as in childhood, needing and seeking his mother's praise and approval but she has none for him it seems. I think that is why he is totally unwilling to ever criticise or stand up to his mum, on my behalf, for whatever nasty, tactless, vindictive thing she has said to me, as he thinks if he does so she will not favour him. By contrast my DH's younger brother does not hesitate to criticise his mum if she says something to offend his wife and i think he is able to do this because he is completely secure in the knowledge that she loves him even if he criticises her.

I think unless and until my DH embarks on this journey which we all are upon he will not be able to see his mother the way i can see her ie with detachment. I have to say also that whilst i think his mother is toxic, she is still a far better parent than my mum ever was, she has no hesitation in standing up for her two sons, she is not a frightened little mouse like my mum and she would never just stand back and watch her sons being harmed in any way. So I do have a lot more respect for her as my DH's parent than i have for my own mum. I don't even know if toxic it really the correct description for her, i feel she clearly did not have some of her childhood needs met by her own mother and she has therefore been unable to meet these same needs in her eldest son, my DH.

I think there is a spectrum of child abuse and neglect. Some forms of child mistreatment are at the end of the spectrum where they are not strictly abuse but simply an inability by the parent to meet the needs of their child because those same needs were not met in the parent when he/she was a child. And i think sometimes the parent acts entirely unconsciously ie he/she is not deliberately trying to deprive the child of his needs but the parent is completely and utterly unaware that he/she is depriving his/her child of some of it's fundamental needs.

Luckily for some if not all of us on this thread we are not acting unconsciously, we have awareness and it is this awareness that brings about change in ourselves and the way we treat our children. That is why I truly think that having this awareness is like being given a gift, not everyone is given this gift and even those who perhaps have the gift may be too scared or unable to use it to free themselves from their childhood pain and thus save their own children from suffering the same fate.

Gosh, i know i am rambling terribly, but to those who have read Alice Miller, I hope what i have said makes a little bit of sense.

Seeing things this way helps me at least understand my mother a lot better as like i have said she was never abusive but i think she was completely and utterly unaware of herself and her own unmet childhood needs and she was therefore unable to meet my needs as a child. And although she was not abusive she was lazy and cowardly as she chose not to undertake this painful journey for the benefit of herself and me as a child and for that i do condemn and despise her. I think in the short time i have been a mother i am already a far better mother than her as i have been willing to go through a lot of pain for the sake of my children and for that alone i think everyone on this thread should feel proud of themselves.

oneplusone · 05/01/2008 15:08

Sorry, just a bit more to add. Perhaps because some parents are acting entirely unconsciously this is why they are genuinely bewildered when their child turns round and says he/she is unhappy and feels abused/neglected by the parents.

I know in some cases the parents are deliberately inflicting hurt and pain on their children, i feel sure in my mum's case she was not acting deliberatly but unconsciously and i know right now that she is bewildered by the fact that i have cut her and my dad off, i think as far as she is concerned she was a wonderful parent. She simply has not the slightest bit of insight into herself or her own unmet childhood needs and if she ever does gain any insight i know she is far too much of a coward to face the pain and free herself from her childhood prison. (Alice Miller's words again! sorry!)

I am feeling better today, a lot less tearful, but probably tomorrow i will be in floods of tears again. It seems that your mind somehow knows how much you can handle in one go and so only allows you to 'feel' as much as you can bear, then you get a bit of time to recover before the next wave of 'feelings' comes and hits you.

cheezypeez · 05/01/2008 15:55

Toomanystuffedbears - I'm glad you stood up for yourself regards the moving away whilst heavily pregnant, sometimes we have to makes our needs known for others to appreciate how we feel. You should not feel guilty for holding back your other halfs career because we all need a bit of comprimise and maybe now is the time to put yourself first. Maybe if you had agreed to move away you might have felt future resentment at being uprooted. It sounds like you need a period of calm to find your feet and a routine when the new baby comes and like your other half says, re-consider the decision in a few years. I am glad that he was sincere with you. This is a great breakthrough in learning to speak up for yourself and be heard in a reasonable way, well done, I am sure it can only get better :-)

As for MILs, well, where do you start. The mother/son relationship is a very strange thing. I had trouble with my MIL being extremely judgemental, snide comments, counting every penny we spent (my other half hiding new items in the house so that she would not know he had spent money!!), not liking anything I suggested or chose and making sure I knew it, nothing could ever match her 'fussiness' or be good enough. In my situation, I moaned to my fiance and he never really seen what my problem was until one day when she was on the phone with him, banging on about how we waste money on holidays, my other half was getting riled and I commented loudly in the background 'tell your mother it is none of her business how we choose to spend our money'. She heard this and my fiance looked terrified. He came off of the phone after trying to cover up what I had said and we had an argument. I told him all of the things that bugged me and that I needed to feel that he could recognise the problems, even if he did nothing about it, at least I would not feel as if I was going mad.

The next thing, she arrived on our doorstep for the full confrontation. She admitted freely that she thought I came from a bad family, that she did not respect me and that she thought I was not good enough for her son!!! I was aghast! However, I appreciate honesty, even if it is negative. Everything came out. My fiance totally stood up for me 100%, I was so impressed as I expected him to namby-pamby her. He told her she was no longer to comment on our money, holidays or anything that she did not like. He told her that he chooses me and that if she loves him, she will accept it, that we can all get along if we try. He told her that she was wrong about me and that he was offended that she belittled his choice in partner (ie, me).

Anyway, it went on like that, that was about 4 or 5 months ago. For a while the contact between us and her was sparse. I invited her for xmas dinner and she took me aside and told me that she liked me 'now' and that I was to treat her like a mother. She told me she was wrong about me and respected the fact that I was different to her and she could see that my fiance and I love each other.

I feel really good about it since then but I am being careful because I know it can be such a fickle relationship. She does not interfere any more and actually seems to support our choices instead of questioning/analysing every minute detail.

I know this is lucky. She knows a little about my own situation with my mother and knows my mother will not be at our wedding. She told me that she knows it will be hard for me on that day and that I have to lean on her for support. Wow!

Anyway, I wrote that just to show that things 'can sometimes' work out with the MIL-zilla and that our partners can surpise us, not that I want to tempt fate by speaking too soon.

One of the few things I am good at is speaking up for myself, sometimes it works for me and sometimes it goes against me but I have learnt to be like that because if I stay silent, it builds up until it explodes and I don't want to be the crazy woman anymore. Its one aspect of me that my own mother hates and it does not work with her because whatever way I act with her, she turns it round on me anyway.

oneplusone · 05/01/2008 18:28

Earlybird, your situation is not one i personally have experience of but IIRC there is something in Toxic Parents about handling the situation when a parent is ill. I hope you can get hold of a copy, if not let me know and i will dig out my copy and see if i can find what it says.

oneplusone · 05/01/2008 18:35

Cheezypeez, wow how lucky you are to have a DH who will stand up for you when it comes to the cruch. And the crunch surely is a time when he has to stand up to his mum in favour of his wife.

I am sad to say that i am not in the least bit confident that my DH would do the same for me. And i don't actually think it's because he doesn't love me, but because he has a deep unmet need from childhood for his mum's approval and so he would never to do anything to risk her disapproval. It's strange now as having worked this out about my DH and his mother it bothers me a bit less, if she does make any nasty remarks in the future i'll just shrug my shoulders and smile to myself that i am a 'wiser' person than her even though i am 30 years younger than her and have been a mother for only 4 years as opposed to her 39 years.

oneplusone · 05/01/2008 18:39

Pages and Sakura, did your physical symptoms go away by themselves once you had found some inner peace (i don't know how else to describe it) in relation to all the family issues and related emotional turmoil?

I have found the hair loss quite distressing and also the eczema, i just feel i can't handle any more stress than what i already have to deal with in connection with my parents. But at the same time i feel sure these physical symptoms are simply a reflection of my inner turmoil and i hope they will resolve when my emotions are more stable.

Pages · 05/01/2008 21:53

Yes, Oneplusone, they went away. They have returned once or twice at times of stress but gone again. You are going through a major period of emotional breakthrough atm, and you will come out of it stronger and happier. Hold onto that.

OP posts:
Pages · 06/01/2008 10:45

Finally caught up properly ... only took me two hours this time

StayingQuiet, I can relate to your attempt as an adult to put the past aside and enjoy a good relatinship with your mother. For me, my mother wasn't on drugs, but it was as soon as she stopped having a relationship with a man that she suddenly wanted to be my "best friend" and I spent most of my adult years denying the past had been that bad and being very close to my mother. I buried the feelings with sex and alcohol and like you, the past did catch up with me. I found that it was impossible to make changes within myself (as people have described, standing up for myself, not letting myself be abused, choosing healthy relationships) without re-examining the past. I became aware of how much my mother reverted to type whenever we were together as a family (and how much she cowtowed to my brothers - and yes, their girlfriends) at my expense. And finally, it was an attempt at a family get together and my feelings that DS1 was being marginalinised in the family to bring to the fore the realisation that my mother has spent her whole life doing what was best for her, and that even her strong and close relationship with me was a self-serving one on her part.

I would agree with what others have said - read "Toxic parents", seek therapy, and then have "that" conversation with your mother. I personally don't think balancing your needs against hers is ever going to have a positive outcome for you unless you are willing, as Sakura says, to choose you first. As TMSB says, we have all been raised to believe in the myth of our own selfishness, when in fact we have been anything but and the balance needs now to be redressed by putting yourself first.

OneplusOne - I agree entirely with the second half of your first post of 2nd Jan. Although my mother, unlike yours, did bond with me, I also have realised with sudden clarity in the last 18 months that she has never loved me in the way that I love my dc, because if she had she would not have had empathy for me when I was hurt or upset and she would not have been able to stand by and watch me being abused by her partner on a daily basis. And most importantly, she would want and need to say sorry now instead of continuing to defend her actions. So, yes, it is a big thing to realise that you never had that love but in fact, after having gone through the pain - and I really did, I remember ringing my counsellor in tears the day she "cut me out of her life" with feelings of overwhelming abandonment, I felt like a 5 year old who really had been abandoned - I then started to find it liberating to acknowledge and accept that, because it has freed me up to stop trying to make her love me and I have turned that love back onto myself. It's as if the game was up, I had seen everything as it really was, no more lies to myself or pretending that she was such a great mum and "best friend" - it was all a lie, which, now I no longer have to keep it up, has freed me. If that makes any sense.

Like you I can at the same time empathise with my mother because her own childhood needs were not met, but that does not mean that I should accept that she failed me. I agree with "the gift of insight" idea, but I also believe we make choices and that most of our parents, as Smithfield says, did what was best for them, not what was best for us, their dc.

My mother was, like yours, not overtly abusive, and I do think with your mother that she was probably emotionally in a different place when you were born to where she was when your younger siblings came along. That is definitely the case with my mother, and I think for many of us on this thread, we have found that our mothers have become better/more loving parents each time as they have gone on to have more dc. Of course it is not about you and how loveable you were/are. But that is the natural reponses of an unloved child, as we have said before on this thread, it is how a child makes sense of what is happening to them, ie it is much safer to belive that you were intrinsically faulty and unloveable than that your mother was just self-centred and incapable of loving you because your early experiences in your family are representative of the big outside world and that would make the world a very scary place indeed. Much easier and safer to make yourself the one at fault. Btw my mother said recently to my SIL (well about 2 years ago) that every time her child reached the age of around 18 months she wanted another one. I thought that was quite telling, especially as she has also admitted that she has only ever been able to have a physical relationship with babies. It's almost as if, once a child starts to show signs of being an independent, thinking person separate from her, she doesn't want them any more and wants another dependent being to wrap herself up in emtionally.

Sakura, I like the "re-learning" idea. danae is the scientist, so will defer to her, but I think what you say is true, as with DS1 part of his therapy is retraining his nerves and muscles to do what they are supposed to by repetition of the process. I used to do 3 hours a day of physio with him at one stage which involved moving his limbs for him and thus making the neural conncetions. I have read ("Emotional Intelligence"?) similar. So for you about the nasty comments and abuse you got as a child. This is what my stepdad was like on a daily basis. I would walk into a room and if I said nothing it would be "what's the matter with you, cat got your tongue?" and if I spoke it would be "Who pulled your chain?" If I asked a question I was a "stickybeak" (ie nosy). I became so nervous in his presence that I would drop/break things and then I was a "clumsy cow". He used to mimic things I said and my facial expressions - always insultingly.

Dillinger, my mother always panders to my brothers and even my sister comes before me. I am glad you have your DP to give you a reality check. I too felt like the unwanted child, my emotions were always derided, I was always over-sensitive or irrational, etc etc. It is a horrible feeling I know to constantly have your emotions diminished and invalidated. But I think so long as you keep trying to get your needs met by people who are unable or unwilling to do so you are simply perpetuating the cycle. I do thik you need to accept that this is a situation that is not going to change and look instead to "normal" people like your DP for the respect that you so rightly deserve.

DC need attention - will be back as I haven't finished!!

OP posts:
kaz33 · 06/01/2008 12:12

Wow Pages you are dedicated.

After my initial feeling of freedom, I have had a little downer and after a couple of incidents with my parents have realised that I will forever need to be on my guard and that I cannot trust them with my emotional health

I am starting to stand up to them in small ways, not sure how it will pan out or whether they will accept my independence. I would imagine not though time will time.

Also DH is examining his childhood at the moment and we are both looking at our relationship in light of our parental relationships. So bit heavy in the Kaz household at the moment

Pages · 06/01/2008 13:11

Great Kaz that your DH is able to go through the process with you. Which brings me onto OneplusOne's point about spouses growing with you or apart. I can see that it can be difficult if your DH actively resists you changing (I ended a previous long term relationship for this amongst many reasons) but I think that just because your DH is not necessarily sharing the journey with you doesn't mean you have to grow apart.

When this all kicked off with my family 18 months ago, my DH was quietly supportive of me (because he thought my mother had behaved abominably and still does) and still is, but he got fed up of the subject, of hearing me and older brother talking about it, and got quite angry about it at times. I think he thought my mother was still dominating things somehow, and that he was losing me to the subject. As a result I didn't tell him everything I was going through and became happy with that, as I felt in many ways that it was my journey and something I needed to go through by myself (and with my counsellor). I didn't really want my DH to "rescue" me because that would be exchanging one co-dependent relationship for another. But as I went through counselling and started to make changes withing myself I found that my relationship with DH was affected - in a postive way, and even DH (who had been a bit when I started counselling) has acknowledged that I have changed for the better and he says now how proud he is of me for what I have gone through. I would echo what Kaz said in her earlier post.

Earlybird, no experience there I am afraid, but I also remember the chapter in "Toxic Parents" which deals with terminally ill parents. It must be very hard for you and please keep talking to us if it helps.

Suzy, your DH sounds fab. Not long to go now... when does she leave?

Welcome Briarrose, not sure if I have missed something but did you tell us about your past?

Cheezy, I agree with you about the "dignity in silence" as this is how I feel. My mother has already stopped some of my relatives talking to me either directly or indirectly and I just feel that if they are going to make a decision about me based on what she says they are welcome to each other. I do not feel the need to go round persuading people to hear my side. Those who are real friends will want to do that anyway and the rest aren't worth it IMO.

Dillinger, to add to what I said in my last post, my mother's ultimate betrayal of me was in fact that she chose to allign herself with my SIL over what had been said about DS1 (the previous thread explains all) and let me take a bullet for them both. Lots of my friends and DH feel that she backed my SIL rather than me because my SIL is my brother's wife and she didn't want to risk upsetting my brother. Although my older brother has also been a scapegoat (the main scapegoat at times) - because he chose to rebel against my mother mainly while I chose to "comply" - I have always been at the bottom of the pecking order in the family when it comes to emotions, as I am more sensitive and "feminine" in that respect. My mother adopts the male perspective. My SIL is as emotionally cold and dead as my mother so they make a good team...

Smithfield, I would give the therpaist a go. I did wonder whether you may be trying to sabotage the process a bit... Can relate to being told not to show your emotions... my SIL once told me to stop showing I was upset when my brother was in hospital.

TMSB, LOL about the hormones. My sister's DH asked when all this kicked off 18 months ago whether I might have PND . Well of course, Pages is mad, there can't be any other explanation for her refusal to be treated like s**t any longer.

Jen - sorry again that your mother's good intentions didn't last too long. But you know leopards and spots...

OP posts:
MissTakenID · 06/01/2008 13:45

Hello ladies,

Can i join this thread? I have read what i can while i have some quiet time (i have changed my usual MN nickname) and wondered if i could share my thoughts here too.

Thought most of my feelings had been kept away for a while but seems that since being PG again they have all escaped.

I don't know where to start? Where do you begin? I was thinking about my mum banging my head of walls, kicking me in the ribs, pushing me and screaming 'you good for nothing, bard, c of a daughter, f**g tart' for no good reason. There were never many marks/bruises to be seen, i remember stopping crying and screaming as i got older, i went into the bathroom instead and cut my face and arms with dad's razor so that i could show her how much she hurt me. She would cry and cry and beg my forgiveness often hanging off my leg while i tried to walk away. In the end i usually always hugged her, she would appear like a child, beg me not tell my dad and offer me dinner out/time with my friends (which i was never really allowed - 11pm curfew at 20 years old!!!) and all would be forgiven. Why didn't i tell anyone?
I spoke to my dad about this the other day, he pretends he can't really hear me - said to stop going over the past that no good would come from it, i would just make myself ill and cause my children misery.
Sometimes i just wish i could speak about it. Sorry if i've gone on.

Pages · 06/01/2008 14:24

MistakenID, welcome, and so sorry for what you have been through . I totally understand that feeling of wanting them to see how much they had hurt you. It must have been really confusing to have been hurt so badly one minute and begged for forgiveness the next, it is in some ways the worst kind of abuse (there is a chapter in toxic parents which describes the inconsistent love as being the worst kind as you are given a hope of the promise of love one minute and it is taken away the next). My mother was also inconsistent in her behaviour towards me, although unlike yours my mother never EVER said sorry or conforted me, and anything I did to try and show her (never actually had the courage to cut myself) like running away was either ignored or treated with further contempt.

You have not "gone on" nor will you be told on here to "get over it" or stop going over the past. Talk as much as you like. We can always create a new thread (- at all of us). Have you tried any counselling?

OP posts:
kaz33 · 06/01/2008 16:56

MisstakenID

How pregnant are you?
Is your mum still in your life?
Is your partner supportive?

You suffered great physical and emotional abuse, it is possible to bury the pain as you have done but it finds a way to resurface when you least need it.

But you can change the cycle, you can be a better parent than your mum, you can love yourself and your baby.

To do so takes great strength, first you need to understand that you were abused in lots of ways not just the obvious physical way. That you were a child, that you did not deserve any of the abuse.
Get angry, forgive and do what ever you need to survive -if that involves divorcing your parents so be it. Your mental health is of prime importance here.

Toxic parents is the book recommended on here the most. I have it on order but Amazon are a bit slow at the moment.

duke748 · 06/01/2008 17:10

EarlyBird - yes I am going through something very similar myself at the moment.

To give a little background - my mother was the type who wasn't intentionally cruel, she just didn't know how to look after a child and didn't have a maternal bone on her body.

She can be mean and spiteful and never thinks about anyone else's feelings. I stopped speaking to her about 3 years ago after a huge fight one Christmas.

About 3 months ago my aunt called me to tell me my mother had pancreatic cancer.

I ummed and ahhed about whether or not to get in contact with her, and decided that I would as, although she had her faults, she wanted me there and I didn't think she was bad enough to not grant her that wish.

I could go on forever, but wanted to let you know I too have thought about having that final resolution talk. But I have decided that it will never go as expected and never actually resolve things. You have to be very firm in your mind that it won't happen though, as a maybe could turn into serious doubts when the end does come.

Am trying to be there for her, but in a quite limited capacity, like seeing her once every few weeks, even though she would like me there much more often. I also try to limited my vists as it keeps me slightly more sane!!!

Feels a bit better being there under my own rules, but of course it makes me feel even more guilt. But, hey guilt seems to be my constant companion.

Big hugs and love and understanding.

Duke.

cheezypeez · 06/01/2008 17:42

Pages - Waht you say about people who may or may not take your side is so true. It is one of the big realisations that has taken me AGES to succumb to. I won't run around any longer giving my side of the story because it puts people in a position where they have to choose between me and my mother. If people are going to feel uncomfortable then it is not going to be because of me. People who know and love me will be there no matter what she say's and they won't need any explanation from me. It IS VERY hard though. I have changed myself in this way because before I would have been straight on the phone to my relatives each time saying "this isn't true", "that isn't true" and "I never done that thing she said I done". It is hard for me to keep my mouth shut, but, it is the only way for me or it will never end. And I would also recommend the book "Emotional Intelligence". It shows that we can in fact change the learned behaviours and ways we react to different circumstances to make us have calmer and more happy lives.

Oneplusone - I don't think my fiance sticking up for me was anything to do with his love for me either. I think it was because she actually admitted in front of him that she did not like me and that offended HIM, ie, how could he pick someone like me who doesn't have a fancy career or rich parents to show off about. Same as what you say about your other half, mine never stood up to her before and his life was her little project, the clothes he wore, his haircut, everything about him was pre-approved by her and I think that maybe I was the first thing that was non-approved. I think before the day of the confontation, that he knew she did not consider me as good enough, but he did not want to admit this to himself or to me but when she actually sat there and verbalised it.....well, he was not a happy bunny.

I totally know that her new found 'approval' of me is her admitting to herself that I am here to stay and she might as well accept it. The other reason is that she will do nothing on this earth to damage her relationship with her son (which I admire since I don't have that unconditional love from my own mother) and if that means accepting me then that is the price she is willing to pay.

That is what I call a real mother and I sincerely respect her for it :-)

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