10 year old niece telling me about her dad's aggression....

[Starshine2]

I have always known that BIL has aggressive tendencies, I've seen the way he sometimes berates my sister and how aggressive, condescending and angry he can be. My sister has been in tears at times, but she has never actually opened up to me, and any suggestion that her DH might have abusive tendencies is met with anger.

Yesterday, I was spending time with my 10 year old niece. She told me, that a couple of days prior, she was in the car with BIL, her 1 year old sibling and my sister. They'd been arguing, BIL was shouting at my sister and out of anger, swerved the car, it skidded all over the road, he then stormed into the house slamming the door behind him. My 10 year old niece was laughing whilst telling the story. I asked her if anyone in the car screamed or was scared and she said they all did and were.

I told this story to my mum, who made excuses for his abusive behaviour. She refuses to even call it abuse or abusive, she's an apologist because my own dad was very aggressive. She said his behaviour was terrible, but that abuse is subjective, and everyone gets angry and loses it sometimes. When I point out that he could be arrested for dangerous driving and that intimidating your wife and children most definitely is abuse, she asks 'why I want to label everything as abusive.'

I've done a lot of internal work to accept that elements of my childhood were abusive. It's taken a lot to recognise and understand that what I experienced (and the situation my sister is in) is not normal. Healthy relationships don't include the above. I really just don't know what to do this, I feel like I am the only one in my family who finds this behaviour abhorrent. I can't talk to my sister or my mum. I am worried about the impact this will have on my niece / her sibling.

It sounds really awful. Scary, too. Is his anger ever directed at your niece? Does it sound as though she's walking on eggshells, like her mum must be?

Its not OK. Not sure what to suggest other than making sure your niece knows she can come to you & has someone in her corner.

Would it be an option to contact your niece's school and raise this as a safe-guarding concern?

She’s turned to you for help hasn’t she. Well done to that brave little girl. I think talk to her mum surely? Yes it’s opening a can of worms but what else can you do

I'd report it to social services to be honest. You've tried talking to your sister and your mum and it doesn't sound like anything will be changing. This will only get worse. Nobody is protecting those poor children. I'd definitely report it anonymously to social services.

Your mum and sister have normalised this sort of behaviour, that's why your mum is making out you're the odd one.

I would just keep reflecting back what a normal relationship look like as much as you can, and if ever your sister wants support to leave, be there no questions asked. For your niece, be a safe place for her.

And reporting your safeguarding concerns is an option you need to consider.

He lost control - almost deliberately - whilst driving a car with his wife and children in. To me that's a man who is probably capable of much worse OP, and I'd be very worried. Can you talk to your sister, tell her what your niece told you and tell her that you're worried about them?

Your mother sounds fairly useless on the subject I wouldn't involve her because she's not going to be any help really.

You’re in a tough situation. Option one is to revisit discussions with your sister. Even then are you sure she would tell you or even maybe understand how abnormal his behaviour is? Option two is to report to social services. It may be hard for you to hide it was you who reported it in reality, which can makes things very hard for all. You also won’t know what (if any) actions SS have take . You can seek advise on what constitutes a reasonable situation to report to social services via childline (if you feel you need that external view). As adults, If a child acknowledges there is an issue we need to take it seriously

They don’t have to name it to know it’s horrible. Stop trying to force them to do that and instead focus on what they want to do about it.

@Starshine2 In the olden days abuse was normal and our mothers were used to it and thought it is to be expected. My mom was abused by my dad on a regular bases and she never once thought to do anything about it. In fact to the last day of her life she kept telling me that marriage is sacred and I should do everything I can to keep it intact.

Fortunately, things changed nowadays and no, that kind of behavior is totally abusive and unacceptable. The problem is, what can you do about it. To be honest with you, I do not know if I would be able to "report" this to anyone as this would for sure set things in motion that could not be stopped. I would start by talking to my sister, tell her what you saw, tell her what your niece told you and see what she says. If she keeps denying it see if you can "scare" her by mentioning possibly reporting this to the authorities as he is clearly a danger to all. Good luck. I hope this gets solved.

I’d report it to the safeguarding lead at school.

I'd suggest not using the word abuse/abusive as it's clearly setting up an instant denial reaction in your sister and mother. Your mum as she can't admit the reality of the past, and your sister because she's replicated it.

So just describe the actual behaviour (what he did. what he says, what you see) and the observable impact on the children e.g. actual physical danger, fear, crying, tension, anxiety. Gently try to persuade your sister she needs to deal with it.

Encourage your sister to look for advice outside the family (Women's aid, Samaritans, counselling etc). Just keep letting her know you will support her. And of course continue to be there for your niece to talk to and confide in.

Obviously if you feel the children are in immediate danger of harm you need to act on that. The other options like School/Social services may have to come if you feel it's escalating and the damage to the children is serious but not sure how much they can or would act based on your examples so far. He's just another angry, aggressive man terrifying his family whilst his partner stays.

It’s hard really, but take it from someone with an alcoholic violent father and a violent mother, my family watched, did nothing. I am now very fucked up.

What your niece told you is most likely the tip of the iceberg. Please act.

Very tricky. I'm an ideal world you could report to children's services and they would be able to take decisive action. My only concern is that no effective action would be taken and that your BIL may escalate his abuse if he becomes aware that your sister might leave him or in any other way if his control over his family is threatened. This escalation could include murder. He is at the least very likely to punish your niece or your sister for the disclosure.

Grabbing the wheel whilst driving is extreme and constitutes a threat to kill his family - this wasn't a moment of loss of control but the opposite. It was a deliberate threat to kill your sister and her children, directed at her because in some way she defied or irritated him. Frightening her is how he keeps control.

Like others I suspect it is the tip of the iceberg. Your niece has told you about the events because on some level she is desperate for your help. My mother was abused as a child and she still feels terribly betrayed by the adults in her life who knew but failed to protect her.

As a first step I would speak to your sister to find out the full extent of what is going on and how risky he is. You must do so in a way that he can't discover or trace. I'd be very surprised if he wasn't physically abusing her based on the steering wheel incident. I would then contact woman's aid for advice. It might take a lot of work over a long time to convince your sister she may have other options. You must tread carefully to avoid provoking him.

I would also explore things with your niece. If she is being abused and you can capture evidence of that (for example, if she is willing to tell the police or a social worker about events at home, or if he assaults your niece leaving a visible injury and you were able to take her to hospital for an assessment of that injury) then children's services would be in a much stronger position to protect her and her sibling and would not need your sisters consent for this. At the very least you can tell your niece that this behaviour is not normal and offer her a safe haven.

So sorry you and your family are in this position.

I also think it was a cry for help from your niece and the tip of the iceberg. I would report this to social services and the school. If you are worried your bil will stop contact with your niece for reporting this to social services, you could talk to the school, explain this and ask if it will be forwarded to SS.

Ring the nspcc

I've been in this position op.
Me and my other sisters all reported to social services about our other sister multiple times they did nothing, all it did was ruin our relationship with our other sister who has now moved absolutely miles away .
I would think very carefully before calling social services the police might be the better option if need be because they will act faster and will refer to support services.

I would report it to social services. I agree with pp about the assumption that your niece has came to you with this story because she needs help or at least needed to get this off her chest, as young as she is, she knows that this isn’t normal. My father is like how you describe your BIL, moody and condescending in the company of others, behind closed doors he was even worse.
A few years ago my mother’s siblings stepped in and alerted social services for my cousin because her older brother was being agressive towards her and my uncle did not protect her. To this day I still resent my family, some of them even work with children, for not calling social services to help me as a child too when they knew or at least could have known what an awful person my father is. The situation as you describe is something he could have done and very likely what your niece has shared with you is just the tip of the iceberg. She has been incredibly brave because at such a young age, you know it’s not normal, but you feel shame about their behavior too even though it’s not your fault and it’s very difficult to talk about this to others. Likely your sister has been minimizing his behavior even towards her children, if your niece grows up with this, she is much more likely to experience abuse as an adult too because she has learnt that abusive partners are the norm. Please break the cycle and call social services.

This has long term damaging consequences for the child. Being exposed to this kind of behaviour on a repeated basis effectively wires a brain up to respond in a certain way. This unhealthy wiring set up can and often does go on into later life resulting in anxiety, depression stunted emotional development and lots more. Basically I read that thinking of your brain as being developed to respond primitively it responds to threats and danger by slamming down on the alarm button like if you see a bear in the wild. Then try living day to day in the same house as a bear. Your brain is put into a constant state of fear and panic. What's it going to do next ? Is it going to attack. It can result in a lot of damage. Sorry but I think you have to take some action.

@Hopefulsunrise CPTSD

If only it were so easy to report and justice be served, but as PP have said, it's not; it could put them in a lot of danger, and alienate them from you.

The fact your niece was laughing is the saddest thing; it's normalised for her.

I would speak to your sister and share your concerns, both over this incident but over more long-term observations too. I would then continue to nurture the relationship with your niece as a trusted adult, and carefully but strongly advocate for healthy relationships. As she gets older, you can educate her on abuse and that it's not healthy. Perhaps you can be the one to break the generational trauma in your family.

I say this as someone who had an angry abusive father, who when I was 6 threatened to crash the car we were all in because we were lost.... I wish someone could see what it was like in our home, but if anyone had done something I know his absolute fury would never be lived down. You really are between a rock and a hard place.

Well done for wanting to make a change and look out for these children, OP. It's wonderful.