Another gaslighting question

[19Bears]

Sorry if this has been asked a lot of times before, but I never quite understand it. I'll try to describe something that happened the other night, and can anyone please tell me if this is gaslighting or not.

Quick background (although I've posted many times about this) - no sex for 10 years, pretty much separate lives in that I do all the parenting and go to work whereas he works and then that's it for the day, had the talk with him but he continues to bury his head in the sand in order to keep the family together.

Anyway, he goes to see bands a lot, usually by himself, locally and further away which sometimes takes him away from home for a whole day and night. I don't mind as I am happier just me and the dc at home, although have become resentful that he has all the freedom to do this and I work around it. He told me last week that he had two tickets to see a band we both like, but I instantly felt that I didn't want to go. One reason that I'm still not keen on being in a crowd in an enclosed space, and the other that I plain don't want to go out with him. So, I worried about telling him all weekend, and finally told him on Monday night that I didn't want to go because of my concerns about covid. But before this even happened, he made me miss my pilates class as he was late in from work, hadn't phoned to say he'd be late which might have allowed me to leave the DCs in on their own for ten minutes (they're big enough) and turned it round on me saying it was my fault as I should have phoned him. For one thing, he almost never has his phone on anyway, and another thing he wasn't apologetic in the slightest. It's not a massive problem to have missed my class, but if ever he needs me home by a certain time so he can go out, he's literally waiting on the doorstep. But still I thought, shit, is this my fault?

So then he asked if my mum could come and look after dcs while we went out to this gig, and I told him I really didn't feel like going (knowing full well he'd go on his own, I wasn't stopping him) and he really kicked off, saying I was unreasonable, ungrateful and selfish. He said I was being ridiculous about covid, and went on so much about it I gave in and said I'd go. Then he said "don't come just to do me a favour, forget it."
It made me think maybe I am being unreasonable to have concerns about covid, we're both double jabbed, as is everyone who would be at the gig, so I felt all churned up as if I'd created a big fight, and by this time our youngest was crying. Then he went on to call me ungrateful again because the George Forman grill he bought me for my birthday is still in its box...... I said there is nowhere to put it and I won't even use it anyway. He's brought this up several times. So this time I answered back saying I go out of my way to get him presents I know he will like, but this was a randomly chosen last minute thing from the nearest sale shelf in the entrance to Sainsburys. But still he maintains I should be happy with it, and I think....should I?

So, I took the youngest upstairs to get away, the eldest followed us up a few minutes later and we just played a game together while he sulked on his own downstairs.

I had to go down again and he followed me to the kitchen with a new rant about my running. "You've never ONCE asked me to go for a run with you! Does it not enter your brain that I might like to come with you?! Again, selfish!" So I told him, no, I don't want him to come, I like to get away on my own. He just didn't get it. And again I thought, am I being horrible wanting to run on my own? I literally took up running to get away from him. Does he not realise???

So now there's an awful atmosphere in the house because I dared once to say no. He makes me feel like I have to back down all the time, but I want to say to him, "what you're doing is gaslighting me and it's not fair." Am I right to say that? Sorry if a bit long and confusing x

Have the conversation with him. Imagine yourself in ten years like this....

My DP crossed a line recently and I had the conversation. Do it, it's truly liberating and a weight will be lifted.
We are here waiting with advice and support.

But I have avoided confrontation all my life, and do my best to rumble on and put a happy face on for the kids

The example you set will be what your children follow. If you continue, there's a strong chance that, as adults, they will have relationships like yours, putting a happy face on when miserable and unfulfilled. I know this because I grew up like this, and it's what I did.

Think about the example your parents set you as a kid; I'd say 10/1 that there was a lack of respect or understanding between them, or in the way they treated you.

This has got fuck-all to do with Covid, a gig, & a bloody George Foreman grill you didn't even want - & everything to do with your selfish arsehole of a man needing to place himself in the right, & you squarely in the wrong.

He has appalling double standards, refuses to step up for half the domestic drudge, & it seems whatever you want to do, he takes exception to & tries to spoil - but whatever he wants to do must be immediately accommodated.

"I don't care if you're not happy"is ... outrageous.
He doesn't care if the kids are unhappy either, does he? All that ranting & sulking in their home.

You say you feel happier when he's out of the house.
You know what you need to do OP ...

It’s not gaslighting. It is a really sad situation though and the communication sounds terrible. Do either of you remember why you married each other in the first place? If you can then some couples counselling might still save the marriage.

but I want to say to him, "what you're doing is gaslighting me and it's not fair."

Not sure he's gaslighting so much as bullying, feeling entitled to service, & giving none in return. But forget about labelling the behaviour for a moment, & ask yourself this:

If you were mugged in the street, would you tell your attacker "you are mugging me & it's not fair"?

No - you'd be too busy running & screaming.

Your DP is emotionally mugging you, & he cares about that as much as a street mugger cares about your feelings.

Run hard, & scream loud. This is not going to get any better.

@19Bears

Five years ago I had thyroid cancer, and went to every appointment on my own. I remember the surgeon telling me the news, I cried, the nurse left the room for a few minutes and he took his glasses off and said "I shouldn't say this but you are a sweet and beautiful woman, and I don't think your husband has any idea how lucky he is. Where is he?" Then the nurse came back. I thought at the time I have to change my life, and here I am still faffing about.

He buys his own dinner to microwave. Sometimes he'll eat what I've made, but mostly does his own thing. He's never cooked for me. Ever.

He's never taken the kids out for the day. He'll come to the back door, look at us playing in the garden, then wander off back to the sofa.

Why would I want to go out with him?

Oh, Bears. This is so, so sad.

I like your surgeon, & I also want to tell you - sweet & beautiful woman, go & live your own life!

I'm in counselling to try and find a way to voice what I want and stick to it.

That's the ticket.
There is clearly so much more to this, that you have allowed yourself to endure it for so many years.
Keep at the counselling, & remember - it works. You are not there to "try to find a way to voice" etc - you are finding your voice, & this is a great step on the way.

@TheHouseIsOnFire

The more you say about him the worse he sounds. I take back what I said about him making an effort to spend time with you. He’s a useless lump who brings nothing to your life and the surgeon was right - where was he that was so important at that awful moment in your life? If he can’t be there for the big things, the little things or anything in between, what is the actual point of him?

Your DC don’t need to grow up in a particular house to be happy. Yes it’s nice if they can (and I’m sure you could find a way if it’s important to you). What they need is happy parents who can make their childhood full of good memories and joy. Playing games with them upstairs - because mum and dad have argued and mum needs to escape from the toxicity - isn’t going to be the happy memory it should be. Imagine a home of your own, where there’s no HIM, just you and the DC playing games with fun and laughter. The weight that will be lifted from your chest when you make that leap will be so liberating. You need to do it for yourself. But mostly you need to do it for them. Splitting up doesn’t make a ‘broken home’, living under a dark cloud means the home is broken. You can fix it by giving them a light and lovely home with you, and hopefully another when they spend time with a dad who is clearly as unhappy as you are.

Ye Dogs, this is a stonking post.

Take it all on board OP.
You don't have to feel so stuck, because you don't need to do it all in 1 huge effort. Small steps, such as counselling, making an appointment with a lawyer, copying & keeping safe all financial & asset documentation ...

The hardest part of any job is getting started.
So start!

You're already doing 100% of the household work & management. Doing it all on your own with the kids, without having to also accommodate the manchild & his sulks & rants, will feel so much lighter. You have nothing to lose expect the albatross around your neck.

Yes @LemonTT I do waste time rehearsing it over and over in my head. At some point I have to get off the roundabout.

And I do obsess over details @Booboobadoo I think I'm trying to find the one thing that will make me snap and say this is the last straw, but somehow I never reach that point.

@TheFoundations Thankfully my parents were lovely together and loved each other to bits, and we all knew it. Why has it gone so wrong for me? My hope is that this won't affect the kids too much, but it's my worst fear that they grow up not knowing what a happy loving relationship looks like.

@ChargingBuck He didn't speak at all yesterday. Finished his work, grabbed his wallet, straight out the door to this gig. Came in at midnight, then left the house again at 8 this morning. I get it if he doesnt want to speak to me, but he didn't say a word to the kids either.
(Just seen your other replies while typing this, thank you xx)

OP if you can't leave this toxic, unhappy relationship for yourself, do it for the kids. They don't deserve this (neither do you).

I obsessed over details too 🙂, but when I came to see it was pointless and a waste of my energy it was liberating. Took me a long time to get there though. I read on here about 'dropping the rope' and found this so helpful. Also realising I was powerless to change another person and the only way I could change things was to stop concerning myself with what ex did/thought/said and instead help myself and Dc.

Apply for a divorce online. Make a start, it'll feel better once it's underway.

You're not in a relationship, you just share a house with an ignorant dick they died t do his share of the chores

Agree with what everyone else has said. Start proceedings to end it.. one step at a time. What he's doing to you is emotional abuse and he's manipulating your emotions by being nasty. Not talking to the kids too,to punish you... definitely emotional abuse. This is why you don't want to be around him. Rather than waiting for whatever straw it will take to break the camel's back, try watching some vids online and reading up on emotional abuse.. once you realise you can define his behaviour, it might make it clearer for you and easier to end it... plus as others have said, the kids will suffer by staying in a home with this going on. They need you to be happy... Good luck. I have just separated from my husband this week for very similar reasons. (Lol - he doesn't brush his teeth either!)

Oh wow @SukiPook well done!!!! I will do it. I will.

@Booboobadoo Yes! Me and my counsellor realised in my last session that I worry so much about how he'll react, what he'll say, what he'll do, anticipating all of that was crushing me into not saying anything at all. I know now that all I have to do is get my point across and let any comebacks from him just wash over me. I think I do need to define his behaviour so I'm clear in my mind it's real and I haven't just blown it all up out of proportion. I suppose that was the idea of the title of my post, to give this behaviour a name so I can really confront it.

Thank you everyone, I really do appreciate your help xxx

It's gone wrong for you because at some point, you've been taught that the best thing to do is act like you feel ok, because otherwise you're causing unnecessary fuss/stress. How did your parents deal with negative emotions? Was it a house where negative emotions 'didn't exist'? Were you told not to be silly when you got upset?

Obsessing over details (Is it gaslighting? Am I being unreasonable?) is a way to explain his behaviour; a way to try to understand it. The only reason you want to understand it is because, if it's understandable, it's forgivable, and you will be able to avoid making the uncomfortable changes you need to make.

His behaviour will never be understandable to you. You will always look at it (hopefully look back on it) and think 'What the actual fuck??', because people understand people who are similar to them. You are nothing like him. You find his behaviour preposterous and unacceptable. Don't doubt that your feelings are valid. There are no rights and wrongs with emotions, so if he does something that makes you unhappy, that's it: it makes you unhappy. If he's not willing to respond by finding a compromise, then your feelings are a side issue for him. An inconvenience. Being right or wrong in how you feel just isn't a thing.

Don't bother saying anything just serve the divorce papers?

Good luck OP these things are rarely as bad as you think. It’s not like it’s going be shocking news to him. Yes he may be ass and refuse to move out etc but you can advice on how to proceed he doesn’t get to decide future. Life is so short you kick yourself years to come that you let yourself be miserable for some long

Please keep re-reading @youvegottenminuteslynn ...every word of it is accurate and true.

My parents thought they were hiding the fact that they didn't like, let alone love, each other from myself and my two brothers...but it was blindingly obvious to me from a very young age. There was no affection, no kisses, no cuddles (I've never been hugged by either parent).

As I got older, my mother in particular found it harder and harder to disguise her contempt for my father...the last 3 years they were married she didn't even bother to try...33 years later I can still remember being sat in the living room, dying of embarrassment while she made pointed sarcastic passive aggressive remarks, making it obvious my father had been unfaithful...this was in front of friends etc. My father left for another woman when I was 21.

My older brother has told his wife he has no happy memories of our childhood. Is this what you want for your children?

Much love OP. Whether you think it’s gaslighting or him just being a nasty man, it’s all irrelevant once you said ‘I am happier just me and the dc at home’

Life is too short. Live your happiest life and leave this horrible chap.

You don't need a big new reason to split up with him

• you lead separate lives
• you don't have sex
• you're happier and more relaxed when he isn't around (I bet the kids are too)
• he's horrible to you and berates you in front of the children until they're crying

All these reasons are good enough. More than good enough.

Show your kids there's better out there for them, otherwise they'll play out similar awful dynamics in their own relationships in future.

Thanks again everyone, it's lovely that you are so supportive, and that some of you are really giving me the kick up the bum I need!!
I do feel like the time is coming, it's been too long already. Weirdly, I spoke to dh's cousin this evening, as he had commented on something I posted on SM about never feeling guilty about doing what's best for you, and we got into a conversation where he hinted that he knew things were not right with me. Anyway, I've pretty much told him that I am so unhappy (behind the joyful photos) and what I want to do. He was totally understanding and gave me some good advice and assured me I am a good person and I need to find happiness. I am really glad we had that conversation, it was like testing the waters to see how things might turn out. Dh's entire family are absolutely lovely, and I will hate to feel like I'm hurting DH, but I think they will get it. His cousin is quite religious, and he gets it!
Anyway, I know what I have to do.
And that is NOT hiding upstairs ironing while he watches his Brexit mates on GB News.....
Get a grip woman!!!
Thanks all xx

So often people notice things not quite right it’s hard fake it when you despise someone! Glad it feels more real know you have talked to someone in the family. You should be proud of yourself, giant leaps today!

@TheFoundations

But I have avoided confrontation all my life, and do my best to rumble on and put a happy face on for the kids

The example you set will be what your children follow. If you continue, there's a strong chance that, as adults, they will have relationships like yours, putting a happy face on when miserable and unfulfilled. I know this because I grew up like this, and it's what I did.

Think about the example your parents set you as a kid; I'd say 10/1 that there was a lack of respect or understanding between them, or in the way they treated you.

Modelling putting up and shutting up in a polluted home environment of simmering contempt will not only predispose your DCs ending up in a similar intimate relationship which is the last thing you want for them - but they will likely stay in jobs they hate, with bosses that exploit them, in friendships where they are second best etc because they will believe that this is normal - because it was for them as their emotional smoke detector warning system has been turned off.

They need to experience a calm and peaceful home where everyone treats each other with kindness and respect where hope and joy are goals - then this will be the base line in all aspects of their lives - and they move on until it’s achieved.

You don’t need a long list of reasons - you don’t need to JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain) your feelings or decisions - a simple we are not compatible let’s move on is enough. You don’t need to enter into conflict.

Expect him to kick off. Weather it. It will pass like a storm and you will come out the other side.

I like PP’s comment - don’t over think it - just know your are desperately unhappy and take a simple action - one each day or week - make a phone call, tell your parents, tell him etc.

Honestly your life will be so much lighter without this fog enveloping you.

Modelling putting up and shutting up in a polluted home environment of simmering contempt will not only predispose your DCs ending up in a similar intimate relationship which is the last thing you want for them - but they will likely stay in jobs they hate, with bosses that exploit them, in friendships where they are second best etc because they will believe that this is normal - because it was for them as their emotional smoke detector warning system has been turned off.

They need to experience a calm and peaceful home where everyone treats each other with kindness and respect where hope and joy are goals - then this will be the base line in all aspects of their lives - and they move on until it’s achieved.

Brilliant post. All of this. So, so much.

If you're worried about his response, avoid escalation by saying everything from an 'I' perspective. 'I don't like it when you shout at me' is far less inflammatory than 'You shouldn't shout at me' or 'You are wrong to shout at me.'

It also saves you from working out what/who is right or wrong in each instance, or getting into a row about it.

Thanks @Akire yes it's funny how people notice things. I haven't even met the man, and he lives in South Africa!

Expect him to kick off. Weather it. I love that @DFOD That's exactly what I need to do.