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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Does trend of kids before marriage contribute to child poverty?

114 replies

purpleneon · 15/09/2021 11:39

I feel like these days more and more people have kids without being married; it doesn't seem to be as important for either men or women.

This is fair enough, but particularly from reading Mumsnet threads, it seems like it is mainly women that get screwed when relationships with an unmarried partner breaks down & they have kids Sad, especially when they're SAHP who haven't paid into their pension or worked for ages. This seems to be due to the huge difference of dividing assets of married people on divorce v. unmarried people on break ups.

Find it frustrating that people feel "judged" if you comment on how lifestyle choices contribute to outcome (which is not the intention), but this trend seems to be contributing to child poverty which is sad & it's the kids that lose out.

People also seem to expect the government to step in when the problem also stems from us as a society choosing to have children in more "unstable" settings.

How can unmarried people (esp. the lower earning partner) with kids be protected more when relationships break down?

OP posts:
purpleneon · 15/09/2021 21:51

@RBKB

Are you from the Daily Mail? Or...do you read the daily mail? I would try a bit of sociology... or social policy or gender studies...from...y'know...BOOKS containing actual RESEARCH🤣🤣

I don't have time to read the Daily Mail, but this is a view I've started to form based on the ridiculous and sad situations I keep reading on Mumsnet.

Lots of single mums who don't seem supported despite having produced their children with someone & complaining about the lack of support from the government.

So many people seem to have children with unreliable men who aren't committed to them, not to talk of committed to their family unit / children. I wondered if people felt that getting married would help this problem at all, but seems like general consensus is that encouraging this more still wouldn't be a quick fix.

OP posts:
Lucyccfc68 · 15/09/2021 22:00

Education is a big one, from a young age.

As part of my job, I attend a lot of careers events in schools. I meet so many young girls who want to work in childcare, hair and beauty etc. Generally low paid roles. If women and girls were encouraged out of ridiculous ‘stereotypes’ of the types of jobs they should choose then we may end up with more women in better paid careers, which brings higher salaries and more choices in life.

I don’t have a daughter, but if I did I would be educating and encouraging her into a STEM role and to never become a sahm. Never put yourself into a situation where you are at risk - always be financially independent.

Choccy01 · 15/09/2021 22:01

I think there's too much of a culture these days of 'if you're not happy then leave / YOLO' and the like. Not enough effort put into making relationships work or putting the kids first. This board really doesn't promote stable family life.

From a generational perspective I have to say my parents generation seemed better in that you got on with it until the kids were at least older. Fair enough if there's a genuinely abusive relationship but often it's not about that.

Guineapigbridge · 15/09/2021 22:14

I think the NHI number on birth certificates is a genius idea. So many 'fathers' fail to contribute their share.

I also think long term contraceptives should be provided free of charge - and greatly encouraged - to all young women. Make the act of having a baby a far more of an active choice.

litterbird · 15/09/2021 22:15

@Lucyccfc68
"I don’t have a daughter, but if I did I would be educating and encouraging her into a STEM role and to never become a sahm. Never put yourself into a situation where you are at risk - always be financially independent."

I do have a daughter and I have taught her to always remain financially independent and never to become at risk financially if you choose to marry and have children. For context I never married as it would have been financial suicide for me as I have a good pension, mortgage free and other assets. I taught my daughter to save, be money savvy and never get into debt. Never, ever to rely on a man and live life to the full. Sadly though, some of my friends relied on their husbands who then left and paid nothing to raise their children....this is where the government needs to stop this. This is where the children go into poverty as no one takes on these absent fathers who just cant be bothered to pay for their offspring. I suggest that girls in school should be educated in only having children if they can afford it and can raise them on their own with their own earnings as too many women get stuck in low paid jobs when the men bugger off. The system is broken to help these women.

Guineapigbridge · 15/09/2021 22:16

But to answer your question, yes, I believe lack of marriage leads to poverty. If a man isnt taking active steps to commit long term to you, it's a pretty strong clue he's not going to commit long term to your family unit either.

Lucyccfc68 · 15/09/2021 23:15

[quote litterbird]@Lucyccfc68
"I don’t have a daughter, but if I did I would be educating and encouraging her into a STEM role and to never become a sahm. Never put yourself into a situation where you are at risk - always be financially independent."

I do have a daughter and I have taught her to always remain financially independent and never to become at risk financially if you choose to marry and have children. For context I never married as it would have been financial suicide for me as I have a good pension, mortgage free and other assets. I taught my daughter to save, be money savvy and never get into debt. Never, ever to rely on a man and live life to the full. Sadly though, some of my friends relied on their husbands who then left and paid nothing to raise their children....this is where the government needs to stop this. This is where the children go into poverty as no one takes on these absent fathers who just cant be bothered to pay for their offspring. I suggest that girls in school should be educated in only having children if they can afford it and can raise them on their own with their own earnings as too many women get stuck in low paid jobs when the men bugger off. The system is broken to help these women.[/quote]
That was my DM’s situation. Totally reliant on my financially abusive DF. When they divorced she struggled immensely (financially and emotionally) with the situation. I certainly learnt from her situation and like you am financially secure.

CiaoForNiao · 16/09/2021 00:52

How would putting NI numbers on birth certificates help? I know my exes full name, address, NI number, where he works. Still haven't had a penny off him in 8 years. Confused

fallfallfall · 16/09/2021 02:27

Men who father children need to be held financially responsible. Docking wages, docking their pension plans, collecting money with annual income tax, or drivers license what ever it takes.

Guineapigbridge · 16/09/2021 03:37

@CiaoForNiao

How would putting NI numbers on birth certificates help? I know my exes full name, address, NI number, where he works. Still haven't had a penny off him in 8 years. Confused
It would be part of having automatic docking of amounts owing for childcare from tax returns. So many father's disappear off the face of the earth. You might avoid your ex but you can't avoid tax!
Bigballer · 16/09/2021 03:53

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choli · 16/09/2021 03:53

However, if one partner owns assets, they are unlikely to marry someone who isn't their financial equal sad
Why the sad face? I wouldn't consider marrying someone who is not my financial equal either.

Guineapigbridge · 16/09/2021 04:00

@Bigballer

I don't believe child poverty is a problem in this country, lazy and selfish patents are the problem You get £20 a week child benefit, that is more than enough to clothe and feed a kids. Obviously if the patents priorities are on other things it is not enough. Plus there is plenty work out there if you are willing to work.
Completely misses the point that £20 doesn't cover you for all the time THAT YOU CANNOT SPEND AT WORK when you have a child that needs you physically and emotionally.
CiaoForNiao · 16/09/2021 05:34

@Guineapigbridge but how? The cms already have that information for my ex, and a lot of men. They still don't get the money. Having NI numbers, and the power to collect the money at source is all well and good... but if the powers that be don't use them then they don't really mean anything.

CiaoForNiao · 16/09/2021 05:35

@Bigballer

I don't believe child poverty is a problem in this country, lazy and selfish patents are the problem You get £20 a week child benefit, that is more than enough to clothe and feed a kids. Obviously if the patents priorities are on other things it is not enough. Plus there is plenty work out there if you are willing to work.
£20 is enough to feed and clothe a child for a week? You've never tried to feed and clothe teens have you? And no it's not up to the government to do so. But to claim £20 is enough is rather stupid.
OhamIreally · 16/09/2021 05:59

Being married really delivered for me at the point of divorce. My ex simply buggered off one day but he couldn't escape the legal framework and it was somewhat reassuring.
There was an article in the news yesterday that 25% of women are wholly dependent on state pension whereas the figure for men is only 11%.
In a division of assets of unmarried couples often the woman who has sacrificed formal earnings in order to provide childcare will find her pension provision has really suffered.
For my own part I offset my claim on ex's pension for a greater share of the family home. It means I have had a comfortable home in which to raise our child.
Even in this scenario though I have sacrificed against my future financial security in order to provide for our child but at least ex had to make a sacrifice as well for the child's benefit.
I was intent on maintaining my career and financial independence having seen my mum stuffed by my dad but even with that and the protection of marriage it's a hard slog and child maintenance and the way in which men can skip away is a joke.

Simonjt · 16/09/2021 06:03

To be honest anyone who chooses not to be financially independent is showing that they’re not great at making good decisions.

Someone choosing not to work, or choosing not to upskill are likely to act the same way married or unmarried.

gofg · 16/09/2021 06:05

I like the idea of cohabiting for x about of time giving similar rights to marriage.

This is how it already is in some other countries.

Humblpi · 16/09/2021 06:05

Meh, i got married and still got screwed over 🤷‍♀️

Hekatestorch · 16/09/2021 06:39

Theres no answer to this. Poverty is the biggest impactor. Trends will show you are less likely to be poor if you do x. Bit that doesn't always work out. But also just because stats show certain outcomes are more likely, they very rarely look at the reasons why this is and so you hey misleading information.

Getting married is quite cheap but society, as whole does still push the 'big day' dream as though the bigger the day the more in love people are. People often don't feel a small wedding is good enough or they will be judged and so put it off.

But in reality, marriage does nothing for many. Those in abusive marriages, or being financially controlled, those with no assets etc.

Marriage didn't protect me as I was the former and the assets were used to pay debt. The only thing that helped me was that I had always worked. But many who become RP after a split find it difficult to remain in the same job

Years later, I own a home and a very good wage and won't get married again. I was told marriage is the 'right' thing to do and 'sensible'. So I got married. But quite frankly, I would have been better off when I left exh had we not been married.

I have a dp but out earn him by quite alot. Although we have sorted our finances so things are more equalish he won't ever be able to claim interest in my property. Financially, he is better off living with me so he can save more of his own money and has built security for himself. He also had a much better standard of living. I love him very much he has been amazing supporting over lockdown while I worked more and he was furloughed. Not sure how I have done it with homeschooling. He also does alot more around the house to help support my career. But we are both adults, won't be having children so no need to join finances.

But we are both financially secure without being married. Dp is in the position where he could get a small mortgage if he chooses. Walking away from this relationship wouldn't mean financial ruin for anyone. I insisted both of us got independent legal advice before we decided to move in together

The problem is that we aren't teaching our kids about finances, marriages, society impacts of having children, work as a parent and staying at home as having a parent.

I still live near the same ex mining town and know people who can't afford to live together and get married. Because between poor employment opportunities, tax credits/UC topping wages up and expensive childcare, people will loose too much, to the point they can't afford their bills.

One situation doesn't suit all situations. My personal bug bear, is how we talk about weddings. One one hand it's 'it's just a piece of paper' dismisses the seriousness of it. On the other hand pretending its just about love, doesn't do anyone any favours either.

Its a legal Contract that can have benefits or serious negative consequences. Not easy to get out of. And when you are trying to get out of it much of the love is gone. Down playing it as a piece of paper or 'it's all about love' leaves people in positions they don't want to be in.

I have noticed a few, not loads (but more) of threads lately where its the women who earn more and have realised the financial impact of marriage when thinking of divorcing. Many seem incredulous that the soon yo be ex may be entitled to so much. And roll out lines often assoaticed with high earning men divorcing a low earning wife. Several seem to have not realised that as they were married the assets were shared and talk about 'bit I paid for most of it'

I think overall we need to help people understand financial planning. Not just short term but long term. Yes, things happen that ruin that plan, but if you have a good plan in the first place you can often adjust, take the hit and still recover to somewhat.bincluded in that would be the pros and cons of marriage in different situations.

Hekatestorch · 16/09/2021 06:41

i like the idea of cohabiting for x about of time giving similar rights to marriage.

I hate this idea.

musicalfrog · 16/09/2021 07:20

Only having children you can afford to keep on your own would reduce the choice to have children for so many women. They are already over represented in low paid jobs as mentioned by a pp.

Many people can't even afford a home without cohabiting with a partner.

lannistunut · 16/09/2021 07:27

Poverty is structural, primarily.

Blaming individuals is comforting bullshit.

Find it frustrating that people feel "judged" if you comment on how lifestyle choices contribute to outcome (which is not the intention), but this trend seems to be contributing to child poverty which is sad & it's the kids that lose out.

People also seem to expect the government to step in when the problem also stems from us as a society choosing to have children in more "unstable" settings

Charles and Diana married before having children. Funnily enough when rich people divorce, they don't suffer from poverty.

These are very outdated attitudes, based on a misunderstanding about why people are in financial difficulty.

takeasadsongandmakeitbetter · 16/09/2021 07:34

We chose to buy a house before children rather than get married - we couldn't afford all 3 but very comfortably afford our house and child

We don't really believe in marriage either

NeverDropYourMoonCup · 16/09/2021 07:45

If I had been married, I would have been penniless and homeless when he finally got around to strangling me. As it was, he didn't have a right to stay in my rented flat and had to leave immediately. He still tried to cancel the rental agreement as 'common law husband' after going and wanted any pension and savings I'd squirreled away whilst he'd spent everything on cars, beer, drugs and acquiring the newer, posher, richer girlfriend. Whom he also tried to steal equity from via the courts when he tired of her, but because they were not married, he was told he didn't have a right to take half the house.