Inapporiate ancient uncle

[BordelDeMerde]

When my brothers and I were kids, my aunt, my father's sister, used to do childcare for us. She would pick us up from school and mind us until my parents picked us up. We loved her like a second mother. (She couldn't have kids, so we were her kids, more or less.)

She's now well into her 80s and is suffering from dementia. She often talks about "her children" (my brothers and I). She lives at home with her husband, my uncle F (whole other story). When I visit, she knows who I am, and who my daughter is, more or less.

The last time we visted them was with my father, and my father now says he doesn't want to bring my daughter (his GD) to see them anymore because he feels that my uncle F has made inappropriate remarks that he doesn't want my daughter exposed to anymore.

Among the remarks my father found really inapproiate were "you'll stay with me tonight and I'll give you your shower".

F has never been known to be inappropriate with children in the past and was never inappropriate with me that I recall. I think it's just age-related dementia, tbh. He's 89 and suffering from bad physical and mental health.

I'm torn as to what to do. What F says is inappropriate, but...my child is 5 and thinks he's just kidding. He is just kidding as far as she's concerned...she thinks he's hilarious. He would never ever be alone with her.

F is almost certainly going to die in the next year or so. My aunt will probably live a bit longer as she's perfectly healthy, despite having dementia.

If F hadn't been inappropriate, I would be out there very often with DD..

How much seriousness would you give to this, honestly? I can't decide if I'm under- or over-reacting. DD hasn't a clue that what he's saying is inappropriate, and honestly don't think either he or my aunt do either.

Yes, I have heard this happens to some people with dementia. Men who have never been inappropriate before start to act differently as their mind deteriorates.

The trouble is, it doesn't really matter why he is acting inappropriately - the end result is the same. And your daughter's memory of this uncle will not be the same as yours. You need to protect her in the same way that you would protect her from a man who had been sleazy his whole life.

I'm sorry.

Would your amity and uncle miss see her for example? Would they even know?

I would miss seeing my aunt. We live abroad and pre-covid I visited her whenever I came to visit my Dad. I was planning on restarting these visits now that travel is allowed again. My aunt really enjoys seeing us both.

As a family, we're collectively annoyed/furious with my uncle at the moment anyway, because he refuses to let her get the care she needs. That's the "whole other story" I referred to above. I wouldn't visit him if my aunt wasn't there.

I'll see if I can get a babysitter for my DD for the next time I go to visit my aunt. If not, I guess I'll just have to not visit either.

Thank you all for talking sense into me.

I certainly understand the uncle is probably not a creep and it is his failing mental faculties which caused him to say something inappropriate (could happen to any of us, dreadful thought). In all honesty, he may never say something like that again. However it is best the little girl does not go there.

I got the impression the op doesn't see aunt and uncle much anyway so it shouldn't be difficult to avoid him.

It's very sad that this awful disease is taking your uncle over, but consider your DD. The inappropriate messages are, thankfully, going over her head at the moment, but she should not be learning "normalising" abusive behaviour in any way, as in "Silly old Uncle X, he doesn't really mean it!" It would need quite a degree of sophistication to draw a distinction between this and another person making similar remarks without Uncle's excuse.

The reason why someone is abusive isn’t relevant. Abuse is abuse, it’s that black and white. What is important is to protect your daughter from this verbal abuse.

The sad consequence is that she won’t see your uncle anymore but that’s not your fault, it’s the consequence of choosing the lesser of the two evils.

I was nine years of age when a man of that age made same remarks and what followed when left in his care has impacted on my my whole life. Just because people get old does not mean they can’t abuse you. I would take your father’s approach

I never knew about dementia related sexual inappropriateness. Are people who develop this likely to act on it?

I think, given that you know what he is saying, I think you should stay visiting them when possible, but not bring your daughter.
But also can you talk to your daughter about what he is saying is not ok, and even though he can't control it and doesn't mean it is still not ok for her to visit at the moment?

I don't know the answer to that, sillysmiles. It may be just the odd remark or perhaps only happen once, however we can't take risks with children.

It is an awful thought but let's take comfort from the fact that most people who go senile don't do anything. I had an aunt who was totally confused and sometimes would go out, up the road, in her slippers on an imaginary errand. She was at risk but of no harm to anyone else.

A friend of mine's mother just became completely silent, hardly moved anywhere and ended up staying in bed. Another friend's dad took the car out and drove dangerously all over the place at night before the police caught him and brought him home. Needless to say the car keys were kept well hidden after that.

Such a sad disease.

And also really unfortunate for the OP as her child is so young you can't explain it to them.

Grooming makes children more susceptible to abuse from the groomer, and also other perpetrators, since the children have been kept in a situation where the grooming behaviour happened, and so are more likely to stay in other, similar situations.
You are right that he may not be a threat, but that doesn’t mean she should be there - 5 is a tricky age: aware, but not yet able to have a reliable discussion about it.
I’d keep her away from the gd unless you can stop the comments/let her watch YouTube with some headphones in/etc.

Anyone who has nursed someone through dementia will tell you of bizarre things they say and do. One thing that may be relevant is that care homes can have dolls for residents to dress and cuddle. Both sexes seem to want to cuddle the dolls and talk to them.
I have seen residents doing lots of socially inappropriate things. It doesn’t make it ‘right’ but it’s not something that they would normally do.

@sillysmiles no. They're not. And they'd be equally horrified if they knew they were doing it. You don't take chances with a child of course but people with dementia need understanding and kindness

Not being called abusers and creeps as som posters have done on here

From a practical point of view you need to get a power of attorney for health and finances drawn up and him to sign it if he is still at the stages of comprehension - makes life a lot easier.

People really do need educating on dementia. My Uncle regularly wandered around his care home in his PJ's with his penis hanging out and escaped a few times wearing just his pyjama top and slippers. Got all the way to the main shopping street one time - he was looking for the pub as he wanted a pint apparently - and got picked up by the police. He'd have mortified if he knew.

My mother started saying quite racist comments, including about her carers which was a bit embarrassing. And just being a bit nasty about particular people and swearing more. We kept taking the grandkids/great GC's to see mum and just used distraction and deflection to change the subject. And occasionality told off like you would a toddler ("that's not nice, we don't say those words")

OP if not taking your daughter means you not going then I probably would take her and try to use those techniques to prevent the inappropriate comments. I don't agree they are so awful they will create trauma for her. And if he says something 'off' I thnk you can simply explain things to her. We told the GC's/great GC's that when Nana said those not nice things, they weren't OK to say but wasn't her fault. Even the youngest understood and he was only 3.

Dementia is brutal and sad. It won't be long before she won't know who you are and becomes non verbal. If you care for her, I'd maintain contact whilst you can still talk to her. As for your Dad, maybe there is more to his comment - that's all I can think is there is some other info you are not privy to and it's worth asking.

@OctaviaTriangle That's what I had assumed, thanks for clarifying. I think if the OP's daughter was a little older she'd be able to explain that what he is saying is not ok and not truly him and if anyone else said anything like that to you, you need to speak to me about it. But at the age she is, she might be a bit young for that. But it depends on the child.

In general though I think children benefit from being around old people and it's important for them. Multigenerational living doesn't happen very often anymore, and in general society is poorer for it.

How sad for everyone.

He isn't a creep or an abuser, he is ill. You still need to protect your daughter from any impact of hearing similar comments.

Can you visit without her?

At 5, can she understand enough for you to explain about his illness and how he might get confused and say odd things to her because he thinks he's talking to someone else?

@sillysmiles Yes, people who say inappropriate things due to dementia can often commit physical assaults. Whether sexual or "just" physical violence.

A friend was sexually assaulted by her dad - he addressed her by her mum's name.

My grandma had Lewy Body dementia. She was a caring, gentle woman her whole life, cut when the illness took her she became a foul-mouthed aggressive and frankly scary person.

I worked in the care industry for less than a year. Most of our carers wore trousers every day due to previous experience of male dementia patients sliding a hand up their skirt. One female patient used to strip off her clothes and tell the carers to have a feel. Sometimes we were caring for couples where the man had dementia and the wife didn't but had physical disabilities, and we'd often have to alert social services that the wife had bruises which she wouldn't explain. Every single day I worked I would be recording incidents like these (which of course all have to be logged and reported to the relevant team lead.)

Of course its not the patients' fault but the intent is irrelevant.

It is an awful, evil disease which is incredibly hard on the patient and on everyone around them.

@Zandathepanda

From a practical point of view you need to get a power of attorney for health and finances drawn up and him to sign it if he is still at the stages of comprehension - makes life a lot easier.

Surely it is the op's father who would do that, op is not next of kin.

In future, op, visit without your daughter. It's not your uncle's fault that he says inappropriate things, you know that, but nobody wants their child to hear it.

Poor old chap.

Plumtree yes it was a generic ‘you’ as in the family. I am actually not sure if it has to be the next of kin but I do know it has to be witnessed to be water-tight in case of challenges.

@EvenMoreFuriousVexation
Thanks for that. Thankfully it isn't a disease/condition I've personally experienced. Very sad for all involved.

Very sad and I'm sure your uncle would be mortified that he is saying inappropriate things if he was in a sound state of health.
Well done to your dad, it must have been uncomfortable to raise the issue with you but agree visit alone.

Christ this poor man has dementia. Can we maybe remember that and try and understand how that has affected his brain? The op is very very clear that he has never been inappropriate before. This is what dementia can do to people and it's a tragedy

Absolutely this. Before people start jumping on the paedophile bandwagon.