Golden Child and Scapegoat

[donoghue]

So the parent is a narcissist and one child is the golden child and the other is the scapegoat. The scapegoat went LC but there was recent contact with the golden child about something not related to the family situation, initially, but the conversation turned to difficulties in childhood and the scapegoat is honest about their feelings about their parents - but says it is behind them, their childhood was abusive but they built a good life for themselves. The golden child gets upset, says that she just wants everyone to get along, that she doesn't want to be dragged into a conversation which criticises her (her) parents, it isn't her responsibility. The scapegoat says she spoke her mind about something which happened to her, it wasn't intended to offend golden child. Golden child doesn't see the parent as narcissistic, or abusive or herself as a golden child. Who is right here? Should the scapegoat not say anything about the abuse for fear of upsetting the golden child? Should the golden child see that the scapegoat's story is not about her, it is about the scapegoat, and the scapegoat has the right to speak as she feels? I can't say who I am in this scenario, I am worried about someone recognising themselves which will cause even more trouble.

@hannayeah my off the cuff comment was in connection with what she was talking about. I am not sure I agree GCs are peacemakers, but my sibling does avoid conflict. But as I said, my comment wasn't intended in conflict, either way.

So what is your answer to my reframed question above?

Thanks @branleuse. I went LC because I really couldn't cope with the mimising. I haven't said that to my sibling, though. But it is helpful to see this through your lens, from the other side - that is what I hoped for.
Basically it is very sad but LC and grey rock is the way to go for me.

I don’t think you did anything wrong by mentioning it. But the outcome is predictable. You are not responsible for your sibling’s mental state.

I agree with what branleuse is saying above.

I am not sure that it is possible to have mutually supportive relationships if the subject of childhood is off limits hmm I think I disagree with you here. My brother and I experienced quite different childhoods despite being close in age (not for the same reasons as you). These days we get on quite well, but rarely discuss our childhood.

I don't think the scapegoat should keep talking about the abuse she suffered if it hurts the golden child - she should seek support for that elsewhere. I'm not saying she should lie - if it comes up, she should be honest - but she shouldn't keep raising the subject. If that's too hard maybe she needs to limit contact with her sibling.

Op your sister is severely mentally ill uou state. And you are not. What is it you wish to achieve by dragging this out with someone who is deeply unwell, when they’ve made it clear they do not wish to engage?

Honestly op, I don't think this will ever be something you will be able to discuss with your sister, You and she have different ( but equally valid) narratives of your child hood.
I would just agree that between the two of you, you don't discuss it,

@bluntness100 I have not tried to discuss it with my sibling at all - yesterday she told me about a therapy she was thinking of doing and I said I had found the therapy really helpful years earlier when coming to terms with what happened to me as a child with my parents - this is what upset her. 99 pc of the conversation was about her. Should I be feeling guilty for upsetting her do you think? Because I had just referred to what happened in the course of the conversation?

Ok I think that's a bit different as the subject came up naturally in conversation. It sounds like you did nothing wrong OP. But still perhaps better to steer clear of the subject in future.

@donoghue I’m so sorry you are dealing with this. I have been in an almost identical situation to you. I don’t have the answers, but I will say is that neither of you are at fault. Of course you want your feelings acknowledged and validated, by the person who you know witnessed what you went through. The problem is, your sibling will see this through a different lens. They will be defensive because they have their own difficulties from childhood.

I know how alone and angry/upset it can feel for a sibling not to recognise what you went through. But on one level, the golden child will often feel partly to blame for the scapegoat’s abuse, even though they are not to blame.

I don’t think there is much point getting into it with your sibling. You know what happened. It isn’t your fault or your sibling’s.

@branleuse @hannayeah I appreciate your input here, because it is the perspective from the other side and it does clear a couple of things up for me. But I would also like to say that I disagree with you.
I think that if an adult has a relationship issue with their parents it is extremely likely that there is a reason for that. This doesn't mean anything is your fault either. I think it is ok to say "I can't/don't want to talk about this" but I do also think you can say that without suggesting that the other person has unhealthy ways of seeing things, and it is unlikely you would be able to really form a view about it without talking about it.

Any sort of physical abuse is too much, as far as I am concerned, hannayeah just thinking back to your earlier post - there is no possible "it wasn't that bad" or "it was exagerated" - if there is regular hitting, there is abuse, no halfway house is possible. When it comes to verbal abuse or psychological abuse it can be harder to prove I think.

You’ve said your piece to Golden Child and given her the opportunity to recognise what happened in your childhood and also how her own needs were not met. She doesn’t want to/isn’t ready/isn’t capable of acknowledging this.

You don’t owe her a relationship with your parents that you don’t want. You’ve explained why you feel this way. It’s a shame for GC that she has been damaged too but explain that you need boundaries in place to protect yourself.

Try to keep any future discussions emotionless, grey rock etc. Be there for her and support her as a sibling.

Any parent that blames their children for their shitty parenting should be ashamed of themselves.

Sorry you’ve gone through this

I too was the scapegoat and I have been LC since I was 17.

DSis, now 50, was the golden child and has had a harsh reality check over the last 10 years. She is now almost completely out of contact with DPs but we now have a good, long distance relationship and support each other when things get tricky. It took her a long time to see my side of things. It helped when managed to explain that it wasn't her fault. Divide and conquer worked well for decades. But she sees it now.

Just live your life and be there if/when she ever needs you.

[quote Andthenwhats]@donoghue I’m so sorry you are dealing with this. I have been in an almost identical situation to you. I don’t have the answers, but I will say is that neither of you are at fault. Of course you want your feelings acknowledged and validated, by the person who you know witnessed what you went through. The problem is, your sibling will see this through a different lens. They will be defensive because they have their own difficulties from childhood.

I know how alone and angry/upset it can feel for a sibling not to recognise what you went through. But on one level, the golden child will often feel partly to blame for the scapegoat’s abuse, even though they are not to blame.

I don’t think there is much point getting into it with your sibling. You know what happened. It isn’t your fault or your sibling’s.[/quote]
I agree, and I haven't wanted to talk about it with her for many years. I don't think she had an easy time at all, whether she was GC or not.

I’m not sure what you are disagreeing with me about?

I am sorry, hannayeah, I meant I disagreed only in part. I might also have misunderstood. You said initially that your reading of the situation was that my sibling thought that what I thought wasn't "completely healthy or correct .. but she knows if she doesn’t agree with your narrative there will be hell to pay" which suggested to me that you thought that this could apply to some people who considered themselves scapegoats.

I agreed with some of your later comments, and it was very helpful to get insights into how a GC might see the abuse and might excuse it away, thank you for that.

Toby's really quite inarticulate, I don't know what he hoped to gain from talking to Kaz.

wrong thread.

@donoghue i too am sorry you are going through this as this feels very real for me too. For a minute I wondered if you were my DSis but then I remembered that she is the golden child!

I think the previous posters are correct - you and you sister had very different experiences so will see things through different lenses and it’s probably best to work out how you would like your relationship to be going forward. This is easier said than done i think. I really struggle with the resentment of not being allowed friends, whilst she was, only she was allowed to attend school trips and the innate sense of confidence she has just from knowing she was loved and supported, whilst ive suffered from depression. Its reallly difficult isnt it but i hope you can work it out. I really wish you all the best

Another one in agreement with @Aquamarine1029. I am the middle aged Scapegoat, younger sister the golden child. She simply doesn't 'get' where I am coming from when I try to articulate my experiences, and I come across as a petty, grasping cow.

Nobody is wrong here.

GC usually doesn't see themselves as GC and will believe the parents excuses about why there are problems with their sibling eg SG is difficult

SG is not unreasonable to say what they think even if it differs from GC's recollection.

It is unreasonable to expect GC to understand when GC has probably been brainwashed or really believes their own version of events for their own mental protection. Don't forget that they don't want to fall out with parents so will "collude" in the lie. Understandable why GC would feel disloyal listening to the SG complain about their parents. If I were the SG, the GC is the last person that I'd confide in. They can not and will not understand and may go back to the parents with what was said and they have extra reasons not to get along with SG.

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who posted. Lots of good wishes sent to everyone who is in or has been in a similar situation. Thanks again.

This is a fascinating thread.
Has anyone found a particularly good book on this subject?

Come over to the stately homes thread whete you will find love and support and like minded people. If you arent in a dysfunctional family folk dont get it. Please come iver there are lots of wise women who will get it xx

Even though Golden Child herself cannot be blamed in this toxic family dynamic, she does not get to dictate to the other child how to feel and to deny the abuse. That in itself is abusive.