Is this abuse? Or something else?

[TwilightSkies]

If a partner watches on as you struggle and suffer, and doesn’t do anything to help, and actually makes you feel bad for suffering…is that abuse?
If he watches you absolutely exhausted and doesn’t lift a finger to help around the house or with the baby?
If he complains you aren’t doing enough, even though you are sick with tiredness? Complains his needs are being met and he isn’t getting enough attention? Is that abuse?
If you are suffering with PTSD and anxiety and he makes you feel bad for it, and never cares how you are feeling?

I’m sorry this is coming out all garbled but I can’t think straight.
When DD2s dad (we’re split now, 3 years) messes around with the custody agreement I have such a strong emotional reaction, I think it brings me back to how he used to treat me. But I never thought of it as abuse. Probably because he wasn’t as bad as DD1s dad and also he’s generally quite a pleasant person and a good dad to DD2. I thought he was just a shit partner.
Was it abuse?
I think I need someone else to tell me it was.

Your first paragraph describes abusive behaviour from one of these men (which one; your first abuser or the second one) towards you and it appears that you went from one abusive relationship into another abusive one. That is a sadly common scenario. Your boundaries, already skewed by previous abuse, were further battered by the second man. He targeted you deliberately as well.

If you've never enrolled yourself onto the Freedom Programme do this asap. If you are in an abusive relationship now you need to exit this asap with due care because your safety is paramount.

What do you want to teach your DC about relationships and what are they learning here?. They cannot afford to grow up seeing their mother being abused because they could well go onto to repeat that themselves. What did you learn about relationships when you were growing up?.

Why does it matter, OP? If someone makes you feel like crap, you can call their behaviour 'shitty', you can call it 'abuse', you can call it 'Bob' - why does it make a difference for you?

It's not a rhetorical question; the root of your struggles is in your answer.

Are you able to answer the question?

No, I think it makes them an asshole

Thank you so much for your reply.
I’m not with either of these men now, I’m on my own. Well I’m casually dating someone now, who is wonderful but I keep withdrawing from him and keep him at arms length. Maybe as a self-protective mechanism.

I’m only realising now that I think DD2s dad was abusive. We split 3 years ago so what does it matter now? I can’t do anything about it. I think just acknowledging it might help me process and heal the pain I’ve been carrying.
It’s hard to think straight. It’s hard to accept I’ve been abused twice.

I'd say that was abusive, yes.

Thank you.

What’s the difference between an asshole and an emotional abuser?

What do you think the difference is? How do you think we should respond differently to them?

I’m not sure. An asshole doesn’t know they are inflicting harm, but an abuser does know and doesn’t care? Or maybe there’s no difference between them.

He also put down my appearance and shouted over me if he didn’t like what I was saying, or if I asked for help.
It was abuse. Why did I do it twice. Why didn’t I realise it was happening again.
I feel like shit right now.

Why did I do it twice. Why didn’t I realise it was happening again.
I feel like shit right now

Did your parents love and respect each other? Did you feel listened to as a child, like your feelings were a priority?

The difference between asshole and abuser is that an abuser makes you feel shit, and an asshole makes you feel shit. You are focusing on defining them. Why are you not focusing on how you feel?

A little story:

A friend of mine dated a seemingly nice guy. He liked to stroke her arm as a sign of affection. She told him that having her arm stroked triggered a horrible reaction in her, because when she was a kid, she was sexually abused by somebody who used to stroke her arm as a precursor to abusing her. He didn't stop doing it. He told her that stroking her arm was a nice thing to do, and affectionate thing to do. So she dumped him.

Do you think she did the right thing? Do you think arm-stroking is abusive?

Did your parents love and respect each other? Did you feel listened to as a child, like your feelings were a priority?

No and no.

Do you think arm-stroking is abusive?

Not in itself. But knowingly doing something that hurts his partner and dismissing her feelings is abusive.

I don’t know where to go from here. Or why it matters that he abused me. It was just a massive realisation this morning. Do I just make sure I’m aware of red flags so this doesn’t happen again?

Well there are legal definitions of abuse but you don't need to meet these to know that someone is treating you like shit and you don't need to put up with it.

Its about learning to recognise when you are in a good relationship and when you are not. And that can be hard, depending on upbringing or experiences.

I like the 7 principles of a successful marriage - its meant to be a couples therapy book but if you read it you can see how people behave in healthy relationships and use it as a guide to see if you are in a healthy relationship.

But knowingly doing something that hurts his partner and dismissing her feelings is abusive

And that's why there's no way to judge between an asshole and an abuser. It could be dismissing any feeling or request, so anything can be abusive. The thing is, we all get to decide for ourselves where are boundaries are for this. If my friend had posted on here 'My boyfriend strokes my arm affectionately. Is he an abuser?' She'd have looked like a nut, if she hadn't given the context. You are your own context. You choose what is acceptable to you or not, and it doesn't matter whether anybody else says it is or isn't abuse.

With regard to red flags, how will you identify them? What will you be looking out for?

Love-bombing. Pushing boundaries. Trying to rush things. Not listening. Not helping me. Using me to make their life easier but giving nothing in return. Putting me down then saying I can’t take a joke and have no sense of humour. Sitting back and watching while I struggle….the list is endless really.

I like the 7 principles of a successful marriage - its meant to be a couples therapy book but if you read it you can see how people behave in healthy relationships and use it as a guide to see if you are in a healthy relationship.

Thank you, that sounds helpful.

I went through a similar thought process for ages, and I can have quite extreme reactions to when he fecks around with child arrangements… like I’m being trodden on or taken advantage of, again.

But looking back I got to a realisation that i was responsible - hear me out - that when I was getting to know him, I filled in the missing bits with positive assumptions, i optimistically assumed a lot of things about him that were not true, and I actually chose him. I filled in the blanks.

That fact scared the shit out of me.

But I also chose to walk out of the situation (with tiny babies in tow) so that makes me feel incredible.

Describing what they are - an abuser, an arsehole, it wasn’t the important bit (for me). For me the hardest realisation was that I chose the journey with him. But like I said I got myself out of it too.

@TwilightSkies

Love-bombing. Pushing boundaries. Trying to rush things. Not listening. Not helping me. Using me to make their life easier but giving nothing in return. Putting me down then saying I can’t take a joke and have no sense of humour. Sitting back and watching while I struggle….the list is endless really.

OK. This might be why it's happened twice. A red flag is something you feel, not a specific, designated list of abuses. There's no objective list of behaviours.

To identify a red flag, you don't need to look at the behaviour at all. You need to look at yourself. Your feelings. You've been trained in your childhood not to prioritise your feelings, and so, now, you don't. And that's why your boundaries get crossed by abusive behaviour, and why you're asking for external input about what abuse is. Because you don't listen to and trust your own feelings.

BUT, they are your signposts. If somebody 'strokes your arm', the right path is not to ask people if they think that's abuse or not. That's just doubting your own feelings. It's almost like 'am I allowed/right to feel like this?' YOUR FEELINGS ALWAYS NEED YOUR RESPECT. Even if you feel that you're being cheated on (for example) and you're not, that feeling is a signpost for you. 'What is this feeling telling me? It's telling me that I don't trust him.' D'you see what I mean? They're not always right, but they're like an opinion of a loved and respected friend who cares about you. You really need to listen, and carefully consider what they're saying to you.

So, in terms of spotting red flags, all you need to look out for is feeling shit. It doesn't matter what he's done.

Boundaries 101:
If somebody does something that makes you feel horrible, calmly tell them. Share your feelings, explain why. And then it's all down to them. If they keep doing it, leave them, because that behaviour is more important to them than you feeling ok.

@Whereismymojo

Sorry you went through similar. Yes I definitely filled in blanks and made excuses for his behaviour. And at least he was ‘better’ than DD1s dad, I used to tell myself.
Well done for getting yourself out.

Absolutely a good idea to read up on abuser tactics to make sure it doesn't happen again. But i I think the most important thing is to learn to trust yourself to not keep anyone toxic in your life.

I can date again now not because I believe I will find someone I can trust but because I trust myself to do right by myself.

That was a big realisation for me. That it doesn't matter if another toxic fucker comes along. Because I trust myself now. Of course, a large part of this is knowing I'd be able to spot 99% of them after years of experience and reading. Because its ideal to spot it early on so that they cant get their claws in and start to erode that trust you have in yourself.

But if you can approach everything quite aloof, knowing that you are complete in yourself as is and a man would just be to add a little extra flavour to your life, that helps too.

I avoid dating if I'm feeling lonely or particularly low for example. And instead pick times when I'm going into it with a mindset of it just being a bit of fun and company for the day.

Boundaries 101:
If somebody does something that makes you feel horrible, calmly tell them. Share your feelings, explain why. And then it's all down to them. If they keep doing it, leave them, because that behaviour is more important to them than you feeling ok.

This is absolutely something I need to work on.
I know I wasn’t allowed to have boundaries or opinions when I was a child and this has caused endless problems for me. Every relationship including friendships seemed to involve me giving everything and getting nothing back.
I don’t know how to have healthy relationships or get close to people. After those 2 relationships I just shut everyone out. Keeping everyone at arms length felt like a safe option but I know I can’t live like this forever. I want the intimacy but I don’t know how.
I have a lot to think about.

I have a lot to think about

For me, the penny-drop moment was when I suddenly realised that I didn't have a lot to think about. It was this simple:

• It wasn't my fault because I'd been trained. My responses to my feelings were the problem, not my feelings themselves.
• It was my responsiblity to fix, and all I had to do was apply the 'If you keep making me have unpleasant feelings, I walk' motto.

In short, 'The only thing that's wrong with me is my partner/friends'

It's astonishingly simple. Your responsibility for your life and your emotions, becomes, in an instant, yours alone. Weighty and powerful responsibility, but not generally difficult to apply. Handled well, it's called self respect.

YOUR FEELINGS ALWAYS NEED YOUR RESPECT. They're not always right, but they're like an opinion of a loved and respected friend who cares about you. You really need to listen, and carefully consider what they're saying to you

So much truth in this. Here is a quote I wish I had heard years before in my life - would have stopped me making a terrible relationship choice. Its ' Listen to your anger and steward it wisely'.

Listen to your anger and steward it wisely

That's great, that is, @ohfuckitall

It's worrying how many people don't learn this stuff in childhood. It's because their parents weren't taught it either, and so couldn't pass it on. Mine included. I learned when I was 42!

'Stewarding' our emotions is a great phrase. They are the wild part of us, the true, core, animal part. I think the mistake is that people think they can control them, but it doesn't make any sense. Nobody can control who they fall in love with or how much they hate the gym, and yet people think they should be controlling their upsets in relationships. There's nothing we can do about our emotions; we can only take care of them as if they were a child who accompanies us, who we love.