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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Breaking a cycle with my elderly father - help

26 replies

rubybambini · 29/06/2021 16:17

My dad is 85 and in good health. My mum died unexpectedly two years ago, aged 75. My 45 year old brother moved in with dad, in part because he wanted to live in a quieter place, rent-free etc. In return, he cooks meals, runs my dad about and frankly puts up with him - he deserves a medal, and he's certainly not trained as a carer. Mum's death was a huge blow to us all.

But to the issue...before mum's death, I could go weeks without speaking to my dad, because we agree on almost nothing - we have different views on politics, religion - everything. I sometimes can't believe I'm related to him, and I generally avoided him and his belittling (about my job, what I eat, my political views) and controlling manner (I don't want you to do that, you shouldn't do that, don't tell your brother. I'm nearly 50!). He offered no help (and I mean none) when my kids were born, and prevented my mother from coming to stay because 'who would look after me?'.

Since mum died, I've been phoning him every day - partly to ease my guilt that my brother has shouldered the load, partly to break up his day. He has few friends, but close relatives live within a 5 mile radius - they don't really help.

This seems so simple now I write it down. But how can I break this cycle of phoning? Each conversation leaves me with red mist descending which I then offload on OH. Hearing about who he's fallen out with, grumbling about the weather, socialists, why women shouldn't be priests, how he's run off his feet tidying the house (he won't accept help) - he knows these topics will annoy me, but he can't seem to help himself. So many micro aggressions that are severely testing me - and the reason I used to avoid speaking to him.

Me: I'm working nearly full-time from home, have kids in primary and my own life to worry about, plus a very ill MiL. Over lockdown, as I'm geographically distant, I've sent him treats, hampers and whisky, and surprised him with trips more recently. I know I'm not perfect.

My OH just says: tell him you won't phone if he's rude or just moans again. I've tried this, and he replies - well thanks very much. The old controlling guilt trip! Not - oh, I didn't realise or I'm sorry I'm having a bad day - just the guilt trip, and I feel like I've kicked a puppy.

I'm torn between pity for a widowed man who has struggled to find his feet of late. I'm sad that my relationship with him is so poor, and jealous that others have supportive relationships with their parents and can seem to have a normal adult conversation with them.

But mostly, I want to start by breaking this cycle for my own MH, without upsetting him in the process.

Anyone been in this sort of situation? How did you handle it?

OP posts:
CMOTDibbler · 29/06/2021 16:40

My dad (who tbf was caring for my mum who had dementia) would call me up to 5 times a day to witter at me about stuff - and never a question about me. I just switched off, came on MN and went 'mmm' or 'really' at intervals. He wasn't going to change and it was better to just listen and put my mind elsewhere

CMOTDibbler · 29/06/2021 16:41

Oh, and I didn't tell him about anything that he was going to object to. I kept my information strictly to the animals, ds, and 'good' news he'd like about our town

PartTimeLegend · 29/06/2021 16:45

To be honest, it is not your dad who needs your support, but your brother.

rubybambini · 29/06/2021 16:48

I've tried the u-huh approach and it doesn't work with him - there are just long silences! It's like I have to feed him questions - the same ones - to which he might reply with a connected answer, or he might go off on an unconnected rant about WW2 or something he bought in 1956 that wasn't right and he was done. It's almost funny when written down, but incredibly hard to put up with 20 minutes of solid moaning and ranting every day. Thank you for your reply!

OP posts:
rubybambini · 29/06/2021 16:48

@PartTimeLegend

To be honest, it is not your dad who needs your support, but your brother.
100%. We get on great. I don't know how he does it, but that's a whole other story.
OP posts:
rubybambini · 29/06/2021 16:50

@CMOTDibbler

Oh, and I didn't tell him about anything that he was going to object to. I kept my information strictly to the animals, ds, and 'good' news he'd like about our town
I really really try to stick with benign topics, but he genuinely can weave anything in he fancies moaning about, or that pops into his head. It's like having a conversation with a pinball machine tbh.
OP posts:
Orangesandlemons77 · 29/06/2021 16:55

I would try spacing them out more and more. So just being 'busy' and "I'll ring next week' then doing weekly calls or whatever you can bear.

Ninkanink · 29/06/2021 16:59

I think in your next phone call just tell him that you won’t be able to call every day but you’ll try and call every few days. Then skip a day (so call every two days) for a week or so. After that week ring him every 3 days and see how you go from there. Once he’s not expecting a call daily you might be able to call him only on the days where you feel more resilient, and leave it on the days where you know it might upset you or annoy you. After that, decide whether you want to call him based on what you think is best for you, not for him. He sadly hasn’t been considerate toward you nor looked after you when you needed it, so you do not need to go overboard in considering him or looking after him.

Your first responsibility is to your own well-being, and after that to your children and to your DH and the health of your relationship. Then you can think about shouldering some of your father’s burdens.

Notonthestairs · 29/06/2021 17:01

Cut down phone calls to twice a week. Just do it. Don't ring at the same time or establish a set routine. Ring when you have nice news.

Allow uncomfortable silences.

Don't try to change their views or challenge The Telegraph (🙄). It's a waste of time and energy.

Shorten the phone call if they are unpleasant or argumentative.

Accept that he's unhappy and that's not your fault & you can't fix it.

Stop trying to curry favour or be the perfect daughter.

Get bereavement counselling (this has been the most valuable thing I have done).

It's not easy and I haven't managed everything on my list but I am trying!

youvegottenminuteslynn · 29/06/2021 17:03

@Notonthestairs

Cut down phone calls to twice a week. Just do it. Don't ring at the same time or establish a set routine. Ring when you have nice news.

Allow uncomfortable silences.

Don't try to change their views or challenge The Telegraph (🙄). It's a waste of time and energy.

Shorten the phone call if they are unpleasant or argumentative.

Accept that he's unhappy and that's not your fault & you can't fix it.

Stop trying to curry favour or be the perfect daughter.

Get bereavement counselling (this has been the most valuable thing I have done).

It's not easy and I haven't managed everything on my list but I am trying!

All of this, in spades! Thanks
RoyalMush · 29/06/2021 17:11

It’s really hard. Sympathies. Maybe try to just mix it up- suggest to him that you move to video calls some days- which are naturally briefer than the phone.
Add in other friends or relatives to the call. You can dial in so and so that he might want to speak to, even if so and so is just on audio on their phone line. Book a few of these in with them in advance without asking him first so that you ‘need’ to do it that day.
Ask him to do some things that are useful or interesting to you like research something you want to know about (have you got a family tree he could work on?) is there a useful skill he has that he’d enjoy doing and you could benefit from, that you could plan a small project together? What about stuff related to your mum- can you plan something you’d like done to honour her, and get him to look into it?

Is there an online event about something that you could ‘attend’ together of interest to both of you? Or a YouTube video about something you both like that you could watch together or separately and then talk about? Could you delegate the call to others in your family some nights- like ask him to read your kids a bedtime story?

Also easier said than done but you need to try to look after yourself in all this and allow yourself to grieve your mum- counselling if necessary.

balzamico · 29/06/2021 17:11

Can you call while doing something else, eg FaceTime/ loudspeaker while cooking sooner/ driving home from work/ seeing to the kids in the bath etc.
Just enough to let him into your life a little but not give him your undivided attention- also I agree with not calling daily. Drop them gradually if you need to but miss some so it's not such a chore (.unless the call gives your brother time off!)

DinosaurDiana · 29/06/2021 17:15

Go to alternate days to start.

Haffdonga · 29/06/2021 17:39

I agree that it's your brother that you need to be thinking about here. Does your phoning your dad help him? Does it take a burden from your brother of listening to the moans and rants? Or does it wind our df up and db deals with the flack?

Ask your db if he wants you to continue phoning daily. If yes, then set the ground rules around timing. e.g. Hi Dad, just a quick call to say hello tonight, only 3 minutes to chat because I'm taking x swimming

If db's not bothered then tell df a reason that it won't be happening every day (e.g. new after school activity for dc after lockdown) and set the ground rules around the timing. e.g. I won't be phoning every day from now but I will definitely phone you on Mondays and Thursdays

Then ask your db what you can do to support him. e.g. stay for a week while he has a break?

rubybambini · 29/06/2021 18:16

@Notonthestairs

Cut down phone calls to twice a week. Just do it. Don't ring at the same time or establish a set routine. Ring when you have nice news.

Allow uncomfortable silences.

Don't try to change their views or challenge The Telegraph (🙄). It's a waste of time and energy.

Shorten the phone call if they are unpleasant or argumentative.

Accept that he's unhappy and that's not your fault & you can't fix it.

Stop trying to curry favour or be the perfect daughter.

Get bereavement counselling (this has been the most valuable thing I have done).

It's not easy and I haven't managed everything on my list but I am trying!

Thank you so much - I love this advice. After my mum died, both mine and my brother's grief were very much second-rate to my dad's. My brother was able to take months off and had counselling, but that wasn't possible for me. I can sense there is resentment bubbling up in me - it's even clearer how much my dad controlled my mum for example, and how she didn't live her life. That also, is a whole other thread sometime. Thank you again.
OP posts:
AdaThorne · 29/06/2021 18:17

My parents are nowhere near as tough as this but both have their moments and during lockdown, frankly, have gone a bit loopy. I basically go out on the school run half an hour early, put my handsfree headphones on and walk (fast when they're driving me a bit nuts!) and let them rant for the half an hour. I have exercise, I try and tune out as much as I can and when it gets to 3.10pm I have a firm and final reason I have to go. I don't take any other calls except at that time - I tell them my phone is on silent because I'm working (although I'm not always) so if it's an emergency then they need to Whatsapp.

I probably sound like a rigid, unkind cowbag but it's the only way I can get through it. I tried calling less often and I felt massive guilt and the torrents of random stuff they spouted on the days I did call seemed worse. This is a finite block of time, always finishes without them dragging it out and by the time I've got the kids home, chatted about their day and given them snacks etc that initial 'oh my fucking God, you'll never believe what Mum and Dad were going on about!' feeling has passed.

This is so hard and I'm so sorry for you though. It's incredibly tough.

rubybambini · 29/06/2021 18:20

@Haffdonga My brother likes (or liked) to know that I was doing my bit, but I think that may've changed as time has passed. My dad often uses his phone time to offload about my brother ironically, despite the huge sacrifices he's making. DB gets his time off by staying overnight when he's working - he seems happy with this. Plus when we do visit, we tell him to leg it and get some time. It's TOUGH. I love your advice about timing too - I've got myself into a rut where my dad wants me to call at lunchtime when it's convenient for him. It's half the problem - a 20 minute call that needs me to work around meetings, my own lunch, psyching up and calming down afterwards - all in, it's an hour! Thank you again.

OP posts:
Garraty47 · 29/06/2021 18:21

Tell him you're poorly with laryngitis and have lost your voice.

Text him every few days.

Then don't start the calling again.

rubybambini · 29/06/2021 18:23

@RoyalMush - I've tried endlessly with this sort of thing, but he refuses to use a mobile, and can't use a computer. I bought him an Alexa, so that he can shout for the radio, weather etc - but it goes unused. This is probably all why I'm at my wit's end. I love the idea of scheduling calls with others - thank you for that idea, and your reply.

OP posts:
rubybambini · 29/06/2021 18:32

@AdaThorne sounds familiar! Solidarity to you, too - it's hard, thankless and largely unnoticed / invisible work when you're phoning.

OP posts:
123344user · 29/06/2021 22:02

What would happen if you asked him about family history and his own childhood and parents? When I found out more about my Dad's upbringing I was able to be a lot more accepting and compassionate about the fact that he still drove me absolutely bonkers as I could see how he ended up that way.

I found a stony silence worked well in response to any attempts at obvious stirring (he couldn't seem to stop himself).

I also decided that although he said he loved seeing me and would like to see me more, he never asked to come over to us, never dropped in if he was nearby, never asked how I was when I was there and sooooo I took the view that his actions spoke louder than words. If he wanted to see me more he could try, you know, making me feel welcome.

I had a think about what were the least worst encounters and tried to "specialize" in them - e.g. meeting on neutral ground, discussing certain topics where we did have common ground or interests.

What does your brother think? I'd be interested to know what he thinks you and your father's relationship is like and what you yourself do have in common with your Dad. Sometimes a third party can point out stuff we never noticed ourselves.

What does he think your Dad gets out of the calls? Does he think they're worthwhile? In particular, does he think it's somehow useful for your Dad to grumble about him (DB) to you, or would he be quite Ok with you saying,
"Look Dad, DB is my brother and I" ( unlike you ) "love and respect him - you need to find someone else to complain about him to - not me"
?

RoyalMush · 29/06/2021 22:07

Ruby it’s really bloody hard don’t get me wrong. I don’t have this right by any means myself but it seems like the only way is keeping going with trial and error to hopefully find some kind of a balance or formula that works for you. Obviously that may mean not calling your dad like this at all going forward but for now while you’re still in the regular calls pattern, hopefully there are some changes to try to make it a bit easier on you. Good luck. Flowers

PussInBin20 · 29/06/2021 22:54

Can’t you just phone him randomly every couple of days? Just say work is busy at the mo. I think it would be hard to talk to anyone every single day, as what would you talk about? 🤷‍♀️

Maybe that’s why he is like it - he just doesn’t have enough to say, so ends up complaining about stuff.

It could just be his age - my Mum’s turned into a right moaner. I think she enjoys it. I’ve given up trying to resolve her issues as I have come to the conclusion she doesn’t actually want them resolved - she just wants a reason to rant!

Sssloou · 29/06/2021 23:09

I am really sorry that you lost you DM so suddenly - and that you are coming to realise that her life was blighted by her controlling husband.

It seems that your DB has had bereavement counselling and made choices that suit his lifestyle and benefit his finances with regards living with your DF.

It seems that your grief for your DM and your frustration with his behaviors all your life are unresolved and being exacerbated by these calls.

Please look after YOU .... he has drained, controlled and offended others all his life .... most people swerve someone like him. It seems to me that you owe him very little and the costs to your own MH are significant.

I would prioritise bereavement counselling for yourself.

And I would lose the guilt about reducing contact as I wonder if your calls are even good for him as he seems to take the opportunity to indulge in negative ranting - can’t be good for his emotional well being to be so negatively focused.

Seriously you do not have to endure this.

updownroundandround · 30/06/2021 06:34

@rubybambini

I got accidentally stuck in the same kind of rut. I was phoning at an arranged time, because it's what they wanted, but it really wasn't a good time for me !

I started by saying ''Hello ! I'm afraid I've only got time for a quick call today, because I've got a work meeting in 5 mins ! And I won't be able to call you again until Friday ! it's just so difficult right now at work ! So much work to be done ! So, how are you ?''
I'd then let them talk for 3 mins, then I'd go and ring my doorbell Grin and say ''Oh, there's someone at the door ! I'd better go ! But I'll call you again on Friday ! Bye !''

I used to keep a notebook by the phone with a list of excuses I'd used and another list of excuses ready to be used.

I'd keep phoning, but irregularly, so that they were never really sure when I'd call etc.
Keep changing the days and times, and eventually you'll only need to phone when you want to.

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