DB calling DM toxic. I think he is the toxic one.

[couchparsnip]

I am losing sleep over this and and so upset for DM. I'll try not to be too long but there's a lot of history.
Firstly I want to say that DM and DF tried their absolute best as parents and no one is perfect. DM had a hard childhood with an alcoholic father who emotionally abused her and made them homeless several times through his drinking. She kind of spoiled her kids a bit as a result, giving us everything she never had. A stable home, food on the table every day, amazing birthday gifts etc but discipline was a bit lax - not absent but not as strict as it maybe could have been.

DBs were awful as a teen and young adult - and through hiding his behaviour he got away with a lot. He stole from the charity box, from me, my now DH, from DPs and never had any real consequences for it.
He took drugs a fair bit too and was just generally selfish and immature - not realising the effect his actions had on others. Our other DB was actually similar.
Love was always there at home but discipline - I don't know. I was the goody two shoes that didn't get in any trouble so DB sees me as the 'golden child'. I think he and our other DB were doted on and spoiled because I never got away with all the things they did. Classic older and younger siblings really.

DPs were unaware of a lot of DBs worst behaviour and they did try to discipline him when they found things out but he ran away from home and they backed off a bit.
So it became a telling off only.

I moved out at about 19. DB was given money to go on a long trip abroad so he would.have been 17/18. Other DB had been away previously and had a great time.
He went to Thailand - argued with his friends so travelled alone and managed to get himself addicted to drugs (don't know which ones but I suspect heroin) DPs sent him a train and plane ticket to get him home, which he did and then took him to the Doctors. The GP said to give him time to rest and recover so that's what happened.
DM calls it a 'protective ring' around him so he could recover and go on with his life. Nothing was expected of him, he was just given love and time.

This is where I think DB is being awful. He has now thrown all this back at my DPs, (especially DM) and said he should have been given psychological help at the time and he now blames all his current mental issues (he suffers from depression) on this perceived lack of help. He says he wasn't pushed to get on with life and he didn't get a job for a few years after that. He blames that on DM mainly. Not the drugs.
He eventually moved out and went to uni and now is fairly stable financially with kids and a wife. However he still suffers from depression from time to time and I personally wonder if there is something else wrong mentally due to the drugs and stress in his teens. It must have been a scary experience for him so I do feel for him a bit but it's been 20 odd years and he's a grown adult. You can't blame your parents at this point. He doesn't take personal responsibility for any of it.

I think he's being unfair to DM particularly because he keeps bringing up the past and comments on mum's personality. So.much so that I've had her in tears in the phone and had to spend last weekend calming her down. She thinks he will cut ties but she loves him and her DGCs of course so doesn't want to lose touch. She has apologised I don't know how many times for the past and I don't think she needs to keep being told she is a bad mother. No one is perfect but there's no need to be unkind about it.

He forgets that this was 20 odd years ago and they DID take him to the GP and did what they were told to do. Some parents would have been a lot harsher and they did what they thought was right. He won't accept that and can't seem to forgive DM. He has tried counselling but this just seems to make him more selfish and need to attack DM more. He's being so unkind.

DM's personality is a little anxious and this comes over as over-sensitivity to criticism and she can be a little short with people when she feels 'got at. This is a minor thing to me but DB has blown it up and takes it all far too personally.
Just recently he told her off for talking over him, which she sometimes does do, but then so does he! He's also really sensitive to criticism so if DM says something he think is critical of him he stores it up and goes apeshit later on.
The latest thing he's done is because they are planning to meet up soon. He has set ground rules for DM about not talking over him or belittling him as he sees it. She doesn't realise he feels like this because he never says so at the time so she is now thinking she will.have to walk on eggshells in case she says something out of turn.
Yes she's a bit tactless but she's never unkind on purpose. DB needs to cut her some slack and realise it's him that's the main problem.
I would keep out of it but they both moan to me on the phone I feel I'm needed to keep things together. I'm just so sad that DM is being upset all the time and can't have a good relationship with her son. She's not toxic imo but DB has started to say she is. I think he's wrong about this. She's not perfect but she tries her best. I think ithe toxic thing has come from counselling. It's not something he's said to her yet but if he does she'll be devastated.
I haven't said everything. There's a whole.other issue with our other DB who he has cut ties with completely. It is too.much to go into this now but the pattern is similar.

Sorry this was long and rambly. I really hope he doesn't see it or I'll be the next one to be cut off!

Tbh I know I won't be popular saying this but I do see your db's point.
I also kind of went off the rails as a teen/young adult and I feel those who should of been ensuring and doing their best to stop this happening stood and watched the car crash that was me spiralling out of control rather than helping me.
I now have MH issues.
Had my earlier years been different and I hadn't been able to get away with all I did with no consequences then I think I'd be a very different person today. Much happier.
I do take responsibility for myself but I do also blame the caregivers who were there to look after and protect me.
I don't ever think I can forgive my DM although we do have a relationship and she is a good Grandmother I can still see the toxic aspects to her and my relationship with her is complicated.
My issues have never been discussed with her. She prefers to sweep such things under the carpet and 'keep up appearances'.

If he is causing this current fall out and wants to moan about it, just don't listen. "I do not want to be put in the middle of this disagreement, do not discuss it with me."
With your Mum you can listen and reassure but tell her that you are not getting involved so she shouldn't ask you to.

You are not needed to keep it all together because he has decided to drag it out, if he wanted to cut contact he could just do that. Please take responsibility off yourself and just be there for them (if you want to).

I have a very similar brother, nothing is ever his fault. Stop answering your phone to him, it's ok not to give him the space to rant at you about your mum. It's even ok for your mum to tell him enough and she's cutting contact with him until he can take responsibility for his own actions.
No one should have to walk on eggshells around another person because they fear their reaction. Would being cut off by him really be that bad?

The thing about toxic parents is that they deliberately give different childhoods to their kids and frame it as the scapegoated child’s problem if they fail or spiral out of control. My Mum is a narcissist and if you ask my other siblings she is s saint but they don’t have the same mother I did.

Even now, in adulthood, she treats me do differently; in that I have to call her in advance and ask her if I want to come over but the others can just drop in whenever they want and without asking. She will only have my DS if I’m there and I must make his meals while the other siblings can just drop their kids off and she will sort out everything for them. She finds faults in the details of my relationship with DH / DS (and calls me a bad wife / Mum) & blows up every slight disagreement but ignores the major ways my Dsis and DB abuse their partners and kids.

I feel like I’m on a stage with a spotlight on me and every word and action of mine gets assessed and reviewed while my other siblings get to live their lives normally. This means I can’t be myself around my family and ‘hide’ a lot from them - they have no idea of the problems I had conceiving or during my pregnancy because I knew they would throw it back at me.

It’s a sad way to live but unlike your brother I just don’t have the energy to try and fix it, so maybe show him some respect by keeping out of these matters. Your mum shouldn’t be telling you the things he tells her; that she does suggests she probably is toxic and wants to erase his concerns by making him out to be the villain. Stop enabling her.

Your DB made the choice to take drugs and steal money, despite having a loving and stable home environment. It is very unfair of him to blame your parents. The first step to his recovery is to accept responsibility.

I have similar family dynamics and a similar brother. For my mother it was all about “being seen” to be a perfect mother, with the perfect family so when mine went off the rails in his 20s (also drugs) his underlying issues weren’t addressed either. He also moved back in with my parents for a bit and they pretended nothing was wrong.

However, in the process, he was horrible and arrogant and abusive and he fucked up most of his close family relationships. He and my other DB aren’t NC, but will never be close again. I haven’t spoken to him for years. 20 years on things are going to shit for him again - separated from his wife, alcohol - and he’s constantly on the phone to our mother, looking for the same reassurance he’s always had from her (you’re fine, it’s all someone else’s fault).

I know this is upsetting for her, although we rarely speak about him, but I don’t get upset because I’ve stepped back from it all. None of it is my responsibility and the ins and outs of their personal dynamic will never change. He will always be 100% validated by her, she will never admit there is a problem and will be torn apart by the cognitive dissonance. OP, you can’t really influence how their relationship plays out so getting upset over it is pointless. Tell them there’s no point in moaning about the other to you on the phone or change the subject if they do. Focus on the relationship you want to have with them instead, however close that may end up being.

I agree with Ozanj. There’s enough in what you say to suspect your DB had a very different experience with your DM as a child.

Best thing for you is to keep out of it.

Tbh I know I won't be popular saying this but I do see your db's point

Same.

I can understand how a lack of discipline and guidance can feel and be interpreted as a lack of love and care.

I grew up with an anxious mother who was over sensitive to criticism, and it has absolutely affected me as an adult.

As to a lack of personal responsibility on your brother’s part, I would consider beating a heroin habit to be a massive undertaking of personal responsibility. It’s no easy feat.

You say your brother exhibits the same behaviours that he complains about in your mum - well, we all learn these behaviours from somewhere. If your brother has never been shown how to deal with criticism by example, how can you expect him to just know.

It’s really hard to come to terms with how your childhood has affected you in your adult life, whilst trying to navigate the relationship on new terms but lacking the tools to do so in a healthy way and all the frustration that comes from that.

I don’t know any of you, so please don’t think I’m categorising your mum as “bad” and your brother as “good”. But this is an example of how “pain” is passed down through generations.

What I’m saying is that he is entitled to his feelings, that they are valid and the best thing you can do is stay well out of it.

So sorry Couchparsnip, having been the designated 'mediator' in my dysfunctional family for years I know how tricky it can be.

You seem to have analysed the family dynamics and personalities of all involved as rationally as possible, trying to be fair to both your mother and brother, which is something I did too. However remember it will still only be your perspective.
The thing is:

1. your brother may be right that your parents could have done more to help him get help and his life back on track
2. your parents may be right that they did the best they could at the time with the advice they got and their own parenting instincts
3. you may be right that brother is not taking sufficient responsibility for his behaviour as a teenager and now adult

These are not either/or - they can all be true at the same time. What's unhelpful is your brother's sense of blame and victimhood causing family friction, rather than him finding a way to move on in a healthy way for his own mental health.

I agree with earlier posters you need to step back.

Tell both that you don't want to get involved in something that is between them. Don't defend your mum to him or try or persuade him he his wrong in his view (though you can say you don't see it that way and leave it at that). Encourage you Mum to seek some counselling so she has someone else to talk to other than you, which hopefully will help her find ways to respond to and cope with his behaviour.

Obviously you can still be supportive to your mother if she is distressed but try not to take sides and just offer comfort and ways to distract her for example with with nice things to do together. 'Grey rock' your brother whenever he raises it with you "I'm sorry you're upset etc", and being clear with both of them you don't want to discuss it.

It takes time but my family certainly got better once I adopted a similar approach.

Some good advice here. Thanks for the new perspectives.
DB is definitely someone that doesn't take responsibility.
A few years ago he cost my DH and I a lot of stress (and money) by disappearing to go have a one night stand when we were staying in a foreign country together. We had no idea where he was and we had a flight home booked. We were frantically ringing hospitals for him etc and had to rebook flight home when he eventually turned up.
DH missed work and got in trouble for that one.
I think it's good advice to be less involved but that's hard when DM gets so upset. She tries really hard to please her son and gets the past thrown back at her all the time.
I do get that was at fault in the way we were brought up - but how many times should she have to apologise and feel bad for it? And why is DF never mentioned in these rants. Everything is DM's fault.

OP, these things are very tricky to work out, because not only are you not able to be objective here, you will also be up against your own issues - particularly and especially the ones you're not able to see.

The fact that you have written so much about your brother, and your need to defend your mother both imply a deeper involvement than a bystander.

And all of this is entirely understandable. We cannot step back from our families enough to detach ourselves from them: there are invisible tendrils that affect us, that draw us back in, and interfere with our ability to see and judge clearly.

I would spend less time focussing on your brother and attempting to paint him as 'wrong', and less time focussing on your mother and her relationship to him - and more, if you felt so inclined, exploring your own relationships to both of them and your own interrelatedness and dynamics within your family. Focussing on victims and oppressors can be so time-consuming that they conveniently give you little time to ask yourself about who it is you are, why you are the way you are, and what unresolved issues you have not only with siblings and parents, but with yourself.

DB is definitely someone that doesn't take responsibility. A few years ago he cost my DH and I a lot of stress (and money) by disappearing to go have a one night stand when we were staying in a foreign country together. We had no idea where he was and we had a flight home booked. We were frantically ringing hospitals for him etc and had to rebook flight home when he eventually turned up.

You know, this sounds like something reckless I would have done in my late teens/early twenties. Although, I would have absolutely made the flight!

10 years on and I don’t even recognise that person anymore. I’m not that person anymore and I would be mortified to have it held against me.

It sounds like your brother is trying to make a change - he has beaten a drug habit, he is in counselling and he is attempting to assert himself with what behaviours he will and will not tolerate from others. Those are all big, positive steps.

You seem annoyed that your brother is holding things against your mum and you say that he needs to “cut her some slack” but at the same time, your holding things against your brother and not cutting him any slack.

*you’re

It's not easy being less involved, it's as much about not letting it get into your head all the time rather than actual practical stuff
it's hard when DM gets so upset. Of course it is, you care about her. Find ways to sympathise and empathise and calm her down without taking sides as much as you can. Find phrases that might help e.g. "yes it is strange/unclear/odd that he seems to blame you and not Dad" or I hate to see so upset".

How many times should she have to apologise and feel bad for it? Well perhaps she needs to stop apologising if it is not working. This is something she needs to discuss with a counsellor to find other ways to approach you brother. But you can't solve this so you need to let it go.
And why is DF never mentioned in these rants. Everything is DM's fault There could be any number of reasons - knows DF is not sensitive to these accusation the way DM is and that DF won't apologise and grovel which is the reaction is looking for/he's more afraid of what DF's reaction will be/genuinely things DM had more influence over what happened at the time than DF/ simply blames DM because she is the woman and he sees the mother role as the 'nurturer' which she failed at/there is no real reason, it's irrational.

Whatever the reason he is focused on your DM and not DF it's not worth you trying to work it out, feeling aggrieved about how unfair it is, or confronting him about it. This is not your issue to resolve.

Interestingly you have not talked abut how your DF reacts to all this and what the relationship with DB is like. If he isn't already, your DF should be supporting your DM (assuming they are still together) and maybe talking to DF is something you CAN do for her.

All you can do know is concentrate on your own actions and feelings. For what it's worth, in my case it was my mother & 2 sisters. At least one crying or moaning about the others (and there were lots of unresolved past grievances from childhood onwards). All expecting me to agree with them or do some sort of diplomatic mission. Comforting and supporting is not the same as agreeing but it took me quite a while to get that balance.

I think this will be one of those threads where people will massively project their own family experiences and sympathies. Those who have difficult relationships with their siblings will tend to side with your mum, and those (like me) who have difficult relationships with their parents will tend to have sympathy for your brother. It’s hard to know from one post where more truth lies.

However, what I would say is that families where there is any element of dysfunction, as there clearly is here (saying that without blaming anyone for it) will have a tendency for people to try to form alliances and seek to blame another for the family issues. The healthiest way I’ve found of dealing with it all in my very dysfunctional family is to refuse to get pulled into triangulation: to refuse to talk about how and why person X (be that brother or mother) is behaving in such a reprehensible or strange way, not to get drawn in to the drama of it all.

It’s likely both your brother and mother have a point to some extent, and it’s certain that they’re both entitled to their own view of the relationship between them. As others have said, siblings raised together can have very different memories and understandings of their own upbringing and can have had very different experiences of being parented, and there are myriad reasons for this.

I’d advise you to stop trying to find the truth or blame one party, remain as neutral as you can and if possible refuse to discuss one with the other. Let them work it out. If nothing else, you’re unlikely to solve anything by getting involved and you’ll probably only drive yourself nuts in the attempt.

You've done all you can. You need to stop trying to work out who's right (everyone is) or who's at fault (everyone is) as it's not your job. Your mum needs to stop leaning on you as her relationships with her sons are between her and them. Likewise your brother.

You can do nothing here. If your mum is behaving unhelpfully, you'll only encourage her by offering endless sympathy and affirmation. The chances are she repeats what you've said in self defense, leaving you in the middle.

Tell them both firmly they are causing dissent and hurt in the family. They need to apologise and move on or work out some kind of reduced contact. Getting at each other, trying to placate and talking about each other is unfair to everyone.

The thing is you grow up in the same household as your siblings, you did see some differences in how you were treated, buts as I have found out talking to my own siblings as adults, the differences are actually so big we could have grown up in completely different households! (don't get me wrong there are lots of experiences that we share as well though)

So I agree with PP who said you have put at lot of thought into it, but realistically it's only from your perspective.

the main thing you need to do is start extracting yourself from being the mediator, easier said then done.

I think it is interesting that your other DB has chosen to go NC with your parents.

Sounds like there is a lot of hurt in your family - through the generations - and hurt people hurt people.

I would look very closely at how you have allowed yourself to be triangulated between them. What do you get out of this?

They are both using you. They are both manipulating you with their emotions.

The issue is between them - but they are not dealing with each other directly.

I suspect that you are inadvertently enabling the tension between them. They get to offload to you which frees each of them up to get back into a defensive and attacking cycle again.

I wonder if you took your emotional energy out of this triangulation, by closing down every conversation, if they would resolve it one way or the other.

I am gonna side with your brother on this one, your mother sounds very toxic. And it sounds like you are still in FOG and thus can't see it. I don't have siblings but I don't thinks it very healthy how your mother keeps putting the onus on you to be the one that calms her down and pander to her sensitivities...

Your brother had a different childhood to you. It could be because of your personality’s-maybe your parents found you easier to deal with than your brothers or maybe you are the golden child. I have felt very similar to your brother, it has taken me a long time to accept that it is not my DMs fault, she just repeated the dynamic with me and my sibling that she was brought up with-I know she tries, also as we all get older, and I have become less selfish and hedonistic I am easier to get along with, as well as my sibling becoming more irritating with age so our relationship is a lot better-I also find I can laugh at her petty criticism, before I would just get upset. He is not wrong about how your parents handled his addiction-again I had a similar experience, not drugs and the general advice in the late 90s, early 2000’s was that the young person was to be given space to recover-basically we would grow out of it, a lot of parents probably regret it now, but did think it was the right thing at the time. Maybe it is time to just stop being involved-it’s a DB and DM issue, not a you issue. I feel for you though, family shit, it really shit.

Has your mother just acknowledged what he is saying though? I dont mean an apology, although maybe that would be validating for him, but just to simply acknowledge that what happened was regrettable.

My mother thinks im holding a grudge about the way i was scapegoated, but in my opinion, you cant dismiss somebody else's pain as a grudge until after you have acknowledged it and discussed it.

My mother has spent a year and a half evading the conversation we need to have to repair things. She simply will not have this conversation.

So obviously im wondering if your mother has acknowledged that they could have got help for him, expressed that they wished they had.

My brother is the golden child and he has no idea what ive had to put up with because they respect him and look up to him

So ive had to check out of my relationships with my family.

Maybe your brother feels like it's a very basic minimum standard that anybody in his life cares that they played a part in hurting him .

What would your mother have to lose from acknowledging your brother's pain and expressing to him that she wished she had helped him.

I know if my parents said that to me it would be enough. I could try to press reset.

It’s not like the movies though, where a family member has an epiphany/breakthrough after other family members intervene and then everything is happy tears and laughter.

Your brother’s thinking is ingrained, similarly, your mother is unlikely to budge. You have been the appointed mediator, there’s nothing you can do or say that will make them see the others’ point of view. I think you should just stop and leave them to it.

Ps, and my brother is very angry with me. I feel very badly let down by his blindness.

All i did was tell my mother that she hurt me. What did yr brother do that was so awful. He gave yr mother his experience, and.... she instantly invalidated him and martyred up.

I also said to my parents that calling me paranoid had to stop. They have all mobbed me.

In their eyes, the problem in our family is not that they have all casually labelled me paranoid, and then, when i was hurt about that, labelled me "sensitive" and then, when i got angry about the impossibility of giving them any feedback, they labelled me dramatic and difficult.... Nope the problem in our family is that i wont accept their labelling of me.

Hopefully this other side of the coin gives perspective.

OP and for anyone who has been part of this dynamic, this may be worth reading:

The Identified Patient

I read it that the DBs are NC, not that the other brother is NC with the parents.