Abusive mother in law domineering our life

[NCforthisthatandtheother]

My partner is a mummy’s boy but not in the adoration and weirdly close mother and son relationship way but in a she was an abusive mother who has glossed over her bad parenting by throwing money at her son kind of way and he’s reliant on her for approval and for her version of motherly love. It’s pathetic but it’s also heartbreaking to see him look for the kind of love from her that she cannot give him. If he does something she can boast about to her fancy friends he gets praise but then comes the added, can you not do x,y,z as well?. He’s 45 years old.

She’s a horrible and mean woman who has treated me like shit for the past 14 years but I don’t really react and I certainly don’t pander to her ego like everyone else does and this annoys her. Her problem not mine. She’s made some not nice /intolerant comments to our children (13&5) over the years which I have commented on but my partner insists they have a relationship with her in the same way they have with my mum. My eldest doesn’t like her granny and tends to arrange things with friends when we’re due to see her but the youngest adores her. He knows my worries about her behaviour towards our kids but it stresses him out that I’m going to cause a scene (never have in my life) and he gets so anxious before we all meet up.

It’s taken me many years to unravel what’s going on when this happens and it’s because he’s recognising her toxicity but he’s not admitting it out loud. He’s had decades of mental ill health and therapy and the one thing he never discusses is his mothers abuse. He can’t even admit it to himself, although sometimes hints at recognising it. I am adamant that if he could talk through her toxic and abusive behaviours then he’d start to get better. If he realised he wasn’t a terrible son but she was a terrible mother.

She’s moved from another UK country to live closer to us in old age and we have to see her more often and involve her in family life. She wants to know everything about his work and finances and how he’s managing it. She’s controlled him with money for years and now I cannot get him to make an adult decision without his mums approval, which I will never get. We need work done on the house requiring taking out a loan or small mortgage but as she’s against it he’s putting it off longer and longer. Now I know you’ll say I have a partner problem and I agree but this stems from a lifetime of abuse and those dependent relationships are so hard to break. I also cannot mortgage our house without him.

Every time we’re due to meet her (and now she has a new posh boyfriend we have to be on best behaviour to impress) he’s on edge and taking propanolol & cbd oil to survive the build up. Despite the fact I have never raised my voice or been rude to this woman he’s terrified I’m going to step out of line because he’s terrified of her reaction. This stems from him not being allowed to speak up growing up (she would lock him up in a ‘safe’ room from when he was a toddler & child with tantrums if he behaved in a way that was unacceptable to her or just give him the silent treatment and make life difficult in his teens) and she still likes to use this power to show us all who’s boss and who she has control over, even although she no longer traps him physically she has him trapped mentally.

I was not put on this earth to massage this arsehole’s ego but I do need to grin and bear it for the sake of my partner and our kids. I know in mumsnet world we’d all go no contact and skip happily into the future without a care in the world but in reality life is far more complicated. He wants a relationship from his mother he will never get and so he settles for what he does get which is approval for acceptable behaviour in her eyes. He has the right to take our children to see his mother as their father.

I’m kind of stuck. He needs support and love and to feel safe enough to open up about all this but in the meantime I need this domineering old bat to stop sticking her nose into his/our life. If I try speak to her about him when he’s not around she goes right back to him and tells him and gives him a hard time (but not me) for it. I only ever speak out of concern and never angrily or accusingly.

Ideally we’d resume the distance we had when she lived elsewhere so that he could maintain a relationship from a distance and he was much happier but that’s not going to happen.

Any tips on dealing with this situation? Leaving is not an option.

Leaving is an option and don't say it isn't. I couldn't live like this. Has your husband tried to get any help? Counselling? Like your eldest does, don't have a relationship with her.

Unfortunately your boundaries in this situation are set by your DP’s tolerance of crap.

Unless you can agree with DP on a set of rules you can both stick by I don’t see a way to work this. The alternative is you set your own boundaries and it will cause DP to get anxious and likely angry, resulting in your marriage going downhill.

The only tip you need to deal with this situation is to remove yourself from it.

You say leaving isn’t an option. Okay. But you are under no obligation to have any kind of relationship with his mother. And I would be coming to some kind of agreement regarding reducing your son’s time with his grandmother, because it sounds like your partner would be vehemently opposed to stopping visits altogether. How do you feel about your children spending time with their grandmother? You say he has the right to take the children to see his mother, but you do have a right to say no. Does your partner force you to visit his mum? You say she has treated you like shit for 14 years. Has your partner ever stood up for you?

Ultimately, the only person who can change anything here is your partner. I understand that he was abused by her as a child, but as an adult and, more importantly, as a father, his responsibility is to act in the best interests of his children, which he is clearly not doing.

You do him no favours by making excuses for him. I would even go as far as to say that you are enabling him.

Your ceasing contact with his mum will no doubt cause conflict between you both, but it is necessary. The situation will not get better, it has continued long enough.

Leaving isn’t an option because when contact with his mother is not on the horizon we have a good and happy life together with our kids. Lockdown was bliss without her. What kind of bitch would I be to up and leave him because someone who isn’t part of the relationship makes him feel shit about himself and likes to have a go at me? Blaming or punishing him for his mother’s behaviour is unfair. I love the man ffs why would I leave him because his mother is toxic?

Absolutely yes to boundaries and maybe that’s what my poorly worded post is missing. How to draw them up so that my partner and myself have a compromise that helps his mental health and makes the stress and anxiety go away for the rest of us too.

No my partner has never forced me to see his mum and yes he has stood up for me and told her to stop having a go at me on the few occasions she’s done it in his presence.

I’m not making excuses ffs. I’m understanding the complexity of this situation as a human being with emotional investment in the relationship. I’m guessing you have no understanding of abusive relationships if you think it’s really simple to solve or if walking away is just that easy.,

I’d love to know how I’m enabling this situation. 🤨

My ceasing contact with his mother would not change how things are between them which is the problem. It removes me from the situation which makes my life easier in some respects but it also makes hers easier too as doesn’t stop the manipulation or abuse or his anxiety and I won’t be there to witness it in person. He’s my partner and I want to help him. I can fight for myself when necessary and he cannot right now and he needs support as he comes to the realisation his relationship with his mother is abnormal. It’s slow but he’s getting there.

But I mean sure, blame the the wife for the disfunctional behaviours between mother and son 😂

A lot of words to sum up a really simplistic and age old problem. Triangulation of the two key women in a man's life. He's absolutely not doing it on purpose and as you say you want to love and support him. So you love and support him, because she's his mum and she's not going anywhere. If you can't do no contact (and I agree it's not as simple as MN likes to make it seem) then you have no other option that to suck it up or add to his upset and anxiety. It's odd he worries that you'll say something when you never have done, but all you can do is continue to do that and add to that, not put him in the middle of you both by pitting his mother as the enemy. You know? You seem like an emotionally intelligent person who gets that if you're not willing to leave the situation your choice is love and acceptance.

@princesslarmadrama

Leaving is an option and don't say it isn't. I couldn't live like this. Has your husband tried to get any help? Counselling? Like your eldest does, don't have a relationship with her.

Yip 🌸

What would happen if you started speaking up?
If you told her things weren’t acceptable or you didn’t like something?
What would happen if you told your partner that not remortgaging was a deal breaker as it’s impacting in your quality of life?

He’s scared and projecting that fear onto you and you are reacting to it.

But whether you witness it or not, you’re not allowed to say anything anyway. What’s the point of being there, you’re redundant anyway.

Would he agree to couples counselling? You have an issue in your marriage that you can’t resolve between you and could do with some mediation to help you agree on boundaries. It might be a way to help him open up to the counsellor without focus being 100% on him.

Would he be agreeable to that? If not, I think I’d find it very hard to stay regardless of how much I loved him.

You say you can’t leave because of someone who ‘isn’t part of the relationship’ but given her influence is stopping you getting work done on your house she very much is a third person in your relationship.

It’s not an easy situation though, I hope you find a way to resolve it.

I had a mother in law a bit like this...I now have an ex husband.

Her abuse of him wasn't so overt, but unfortunately it did impact his behaviour towards me and I did have to see her and he never, ever stood up for me.

Eventually I decided that whatever the reasons behind his behaviour, the question was 'could I live with it?'

Sadly the answer was a resounding 'no'.

Would he not consider going no/limited contact with her?

I would suggest counselling or therapy for him so he can unravel all of this and work it out for himself.

You also need to tell him some hard truths about his mother, her behaviour is unacceptable and it's having an impact on big family decisions such as the mortgage etc.

Also does he have any siblings?

I'd be insisting on couples counselling, with a view to individual therapy for him.

Aim not being splitting up but addressing the issues you have - not being able to make financial decisions without them being run past his mother and so them being put off indefinitely.

If he doesn’t get upset and defensive, talk to him about how you are going to behave before, during and after the times you all see her.
So, for instance say that you know he’ll be anxious before the visit, so you won’t talk about it. During the visit you’ll be on your best behaviour, but after, you get to say what you really felt about it all.
My dad was pretty toxic, so I found ridicule the best way I could deal with him. My husband talked to him during our visits so that I didn’t go nuclear, as he wound me up so much. Afterwards, I’d laugh about when he said the worst things, like grandad bingo, so the kids knew that what he said/did wasn’t ok too, but could keep a relationship with him. It took the sting out of it all and we actually started looking forward to seeing him, as he lost his power to hurt me.
And don’t let her pay for anything. That takes away most of her power.

My advice firstly is to assure your DH you will never ever cause a scene with his mother. Taking that anxiety out of his life will cost you nothing and will help he see more clearly his mothers behaviour. While he is looking at you expecting an issue it is deflecting his focus on how his mother really is.

The mother child relationship is endlessly complex and no amount of reasoning and common sense will divert him away from trying to please his mother. Encourage him to keep on with the counselling to uncover his real feeling towards her.

Ration your visits to her and send him and the youngest DC to visit alone. Invent work or other commitments for yourself and older DC

Don't ever discuss DH with his mother or have any personal chats with her. Nod, smile, small talk and leave as soon as the duty is done.

Otherwise step back and let your DH navigate his relationship with her.

Why on earth have you put up with this? Why on earth did you both ever let her move nearer to you, knowing how damaging she is. Im sorry but she needed telling from the very beginning how things were going to be. Money or no money.

I had a similar overbearing MIL, although not to this extent, and I completely opted out. I didn’t see or speak to her for years, although my husband did. That was his choice and I made it clear that I would not be involved. She died a few years ago now.

My DH was very similar as was his DM he just couldn’t make himself stand up to her despite being generally quite assertive and having no problem standing up to me.

In the end I decided that if we weren’t allowed to cut contact then I was not going to allow her to dominate the situation either, every time she started I would cut her off with a sweet but quite firm and probably quite patronising comment. After a few uncomfortable visits she gave up sticking her oar in.

Now provided she can keep a civil tongue and mind her own business DH and DS visit. As soon as the shenanigans start I visit too. It’s interesting that the visits have got shorter and now when she starts DH leaves of his own accord. I think her behaviour was so normalised through his childhood that he couldn’t see it until it was clearly pointed out every time.

If she asks an inappropriate question about finances “oh it’s rude to talk about money” “oh don’t worry about our finances we’re on top of everything” “oh we don’t need any advice thanks, we’re quite confortable with our plans”

About the kids “don’t be silly Grandma, that’s Mum and Dads job” “oh that’s a family decision we’ll talk about it later”

When she phones “No that’s OK you can talk to me” “oh you don’t want to?” “Oh well Bob isn’t here bye bye”

When she was being openly nasty “right it’s time to go grandma is a bit tired today.”

I know in mumsnet world we’d all go no contact and skip happily into the future without a care in the world but in reality life is far more complicated.

OP that's a very condescending attitude. NC isn't easy but people do it for the sake of their mental health.

Where are you in all this? People are trampling all over you here.

1. Where were you when his mum decided to move nearer to your home?

1. Where are you when his mum is making financial decisions that don't affect or concern her?

1. Where are you when this woman is making toxic and unacceptable comments to your children?

This isn't even your mother but you are kow towing to her in this sick threesome. You can't do anything about your husband's behaviour; he's not a radio controlled puppet. You can do something about yours.

You need to start asserting yourself here. How do you feel about the mortgage situation? Have you sat down with your husband and discussed it? No one is taking your needs and views into consideration here and his mum is steering the course of your relationship. How do you feel about that?

OP this relationship between all three of you is sick and dysfunctional. What are you going to do about it?

Will your DH consider counselling or therapy? If not, I'm not sure how you move forward.

I’m guessing you have no understanding of abusive relationships if you think it’s really simple to solve or if walking away is just that easy.

People don’t go no contact because it’s easy; they go no contact because it’s necessary.

I’d love to know how I’m enabling this situation

You’ve went along with this for 14 years. Allowed yourself to be treated like shit for 14 years. Exposed your children to unpleasant comments from her. Allowed your 5 year old to form a close relationship with a woman who abused your husband so badly that he needs to take propanolol and cbd oil before he sees her. You’ve allowed her to move closer to you, involved her in family life and now she is making financial decisions for you.

You have the right to say no. You could have said no to any of this. But I’m assuming that you didn’t, probably because you don’t want to cause your husband any conflict with his mum. That’s enabling him. And nothing will change whilst you continue to do that.

What pp have said about counselling etc, definitely.

But in the meantime I'd start speaking my mind (in a friendly way) in front of her. So if she says "son, you've done a good job there. Shame you can't do xyz as well", can't you chip in with "dp has done a phenomenal job, we're so proud of him. We don't need him to do xyz as well, he's only human/we love him just the way he is" etc. Basically you say what she SHOULD be saying and make her look ridiculously over-demanding and at the same time you're backing him up and raising his self-esteem.

It's super awkward at first, but this is something that you can do without your dp's agreement. He can hardly say, please stop saying nice things about me in front of my mother!

Occasionally my mil has seemingly tried to get me to agree that my DH is messy/scatterbrained or similar. She doesn't mean it maliciously (I think she might actually be trying to create a good relationship with me) and it's very minor and not an issue. I've still never ever failed to defend DH. I always say 'och no he's not messy at all' or whatever. Me and dh are a team - nobody, not even his mother, is going to get the tiniest wedge between us.

But I mean sure, blame the the wife for the disfunctional behaviours between mother and son

No one is blaming you. But you are making no attempt to set healthy boundaries either, so that does make you part of the dysfunction, unfortunately.

You have sought to understand the situation from your husband’s perspective and why he behaves the way he does, which is great, but now you need to try to understand:

1. Your own part in the situation.

1. That your husband’s anxiety is his own issue. That his need for his mum’s approval is his own issue. That’s for him to sort. You can’t help him with either of those things. He needs to do the work himself.

He should not be seeking reassurance from you that you will not “step out of line” during a visit with his mum. You cannot give him that assurance because you cannot know how his mum will behave during that visit. Some things cannot go unchallenged.

I can fight for myself when necessary and he cannot right now and he needs support as he comes to the realisation his relationship with his mother is abnormal

He knows. Trust me, he already knows.

You can't have any control over the way his mum behaves, but you can, and do have the right to control the amount of time that you spend around her, and your kids too (if she's a bad influence on them).

A lot of people grow up with domineering, narcissistic parents but they realise that it's not fair to subject their partner to this behaviour. I suspect the reason why your husband holds on to her is because she has some kind of power over him - he's afraid of losing her support (because he hasn't built the necessary social networks to substitute it) or he's afraid of being disinherited.That's his choice really. There's a limit to which you should put up with this kind of thing. Unless it means being on the street, having liberty is more important in the end.

She’s controlled him with money for years and now I cannot get him to make an adult decision without his mums approval, which I will never get

Yes, and now she's controlling you by proxy. She's made him so insecure, so unsure of himself, so unconfident that he can't seem to make adult decisions without her. Parents like this don't want their children to become independent adults. They want them to live half-lives. They are insecure children in adult bodies, still reliant on their parents, having never developed the confidence necessary for full autonomy.

The first thing you have to encourage your husband to learn is to sit with discomfort. Saying no to her won't be easy. Just like a child learns to balance on two feet, he too has to accept that making decisions without her approval might be anxiety including, might mean he makes mistakes. He needs to live with that discomfort for a while, and bear any resulting storm. Also, you both need to be financially independent and never in a position where you need her in this way. It's the one tangible power she had over you so that needs to be nipped in the bud. I'd say that contact also needs to be minimised, but he's the one who needs to decide that, and if he won't reduce it, I'm afraid I don't see much hope in this. For God's sake, I'm sure you think he's a lovely man, but is he married to you or his mother??

You've had some excellent answer, I'm just going to encourage you to look at the Karpman Drama Triangle.

You started off in the role of Rescuer, but as soon as you step out of that role you will become the Persecutor.

changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/games/drama_triangle.htm

palgroup.org/~palgrou1/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/HI-D008-DramaTriangle090808.pdf