Is there a word for what would be gaslighting, except the 'abuser' truly believes their false version of events?

[NewLevelsOfTiredness]

Hi, I'm trying to work out my partner's ex.

For clarity, I'm male and so I'm talking about another guy. The father to my two step daughters. I feel I need to describe him a bit but the question is below the asterisks below if you can't be arsed :)

He's an arse. When they were breaking up, she kept a list of things he'd done wrong to help her through wobbles. It was a long list. I've had that added to by their old neighbours, my partner's family, partner's friends etc. I mean, he's clearly an arse. She was well justified in kicking him out.

He's also sort of ok. He's done right by the kids and they enjoy seeing him. Even early in the split when he was incredibly bitter he made sure the kids didn't see it. He hates that I'm raising his kids (he has them every other weekend,) but also gives his blessing to it and acknowledges he ran away from the task when they were together.
There was never any DV or anything like that. A lot of his faults are almost amusing when you don't have to live with them - not sure how to put it better than that. I'll overhear him and my partner on the phone and he'll say something utterly exasperating that makes me laugh but I can understand why you'd want to kill him if you were putting up with that every day while raising two young kids.
He has a sort of honor. He was never unfaithful and I know when he saw his best friend put his hands round his (the friend's) wife's neck he wrestled him away and cut contact with him.
His behaviour can perhaps be somewhat mitigated by severe diagnosed ADHD, plus dyslexia, OCD and generally an interesting mix of disorders. He has not had a kind hand in life.

I mean, I hate him for making so much of my partner's life miserable in the past (and very occasionally now) but I also kind of... like him. My partner is happy with it this way.

**

The point... he technically gaslit and gaslights the hell out of my partner. Insisting on events being a certain (false) way, never backing down, calling her crazy etc...

What's become clear over time is that he believes it. Completely. He isn't trying to cover lies or his behaviour or anything like that. His memory literally seems to rewrite itself and he gets frustrated and angry that hers' is 'wrong.'

Is this normal or has anyone run into it with their exes or current partners? It's not classic gaslighting right - the abuser knows they're pushing falsehoods with that?

It's not an important question as such, it doesn't impact on us day to day but rears its head now and again.

I think gaslighters frequently eventually believe their version of the truth even if at first they knew it was lies

I don’t think it’s a great sign that you like someone who upset your partner so much or that you’re trying to excuse his behaviour

It's called confirmation bias.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

My DH does this about mundane things (e.g. I asked him to buy coffee when he went shopping; he swears blind I didn't even when the DC also confirm that I did say it and he said "ok" so had clearly heard it). I would really like to know if there is a reason for it as well. I wouldn't mind if he said "sorry, I forgot", but he is absolutely categorical that I never asked him and I'm the one making things up.

@Shoxfordian

I don’t think it’s a great sign that you like someone who upset your partner so much or that you’re trying to excuse his behaviour

That's fair but I think I was trying to give a balanced impression rather than "hey my partner's ex is a dick and I'd like more ammo to fire at him."

The 'list' I spoke of is long and the behavior inexcusable. She was right to leave him and I think he's lucky it was a split and not a murder sometimes. But he has no power over her and she doesn't feel she was abused, just... taken for granted, treated inconsiderately, and expected to pick up his shit all the time.

For her part she would prefer that I saw him as a complete person and not just a 2D villain character.

My point is trying to work out if he's guilty of any genuine abuse or just... shit. It's not to start a debate with her - we both scratch our heads trying to work it out.

My Ex did this. For the past 2 years all communication is done via text msg so I have a clear written record of what's been said.

Gaslighting is gaslighting whether the perpetrator believes it or not.

They are extremely convincing and believe their version of events because of "magical thinking" and living in an alternative reality.

People are not all good or all bad but gaslighting is abusive behaviour because it causes another to doubt themselves. Sometimes the gaslit person doesn't see it until well out of it.

exH is a little bit like this - he genuinely believes he's a "great family man", despite one DC considering no contact and one having had counselling to deal with how they feel about him. He genuinely thinks that he made loads of effort in our marriage, and I didn't, despite ALL the conversations/discussions/rows we had (about mainly his behaviour). He thinks if he's said it, it's true, regardless of whether it did actually happen, and that if he thought it (either at the time or subsequently), then that's what he actually meant, regardless of what he actually said.

He's not being malicious or deliberately horrible (I don't think), its just he can't actually comprehend that reality might not match up to his vision of himself/what he does. And so if something goes wrong (like his wife leaves him, after far too many years of being miserable) it has to be because of external factors/the other person.

I'm looking forward to finalising the divorce, then I need never think about him again, or have to try and work out which reality he's inhabiting today, or working out what he actually means from the works he's used. He just can't comprehend that other people exist separately to him I don't think.

What’s the point in trying to work it out now? He didn’t treat her well, hopefully you treat her better and it’s over

My ex also has ADHD, OCD and anxiety. He accused me for years of doing things I wasn't (xyz...just to upset him because I knew he had an (eg) important appointment due). His rages were anxiety driven, but for reasons I still don't know, he always turned it personal and against me. It was a desire to hurt me I still can't understand.

It caused endless confusion and distress in me because I couldn't understand why he was saying the things he was. I knew they weren't true and couldn't understand why he clearly believed the things he was saying. I came to the conclusion that he did feel guilty about the rages and behaviours, so to justify it he had to convince himself what he was telling the truth, and he was justified in treating me the way he did. So he was gaslighting me and himself, as well as abusing me. He also slagged me off to his friends, and if he could convince them, it bolstered his belief in his own lies. He even tried it with my family, but they didn't buy it.

If her ex had rages, look at 'explosive temper disorder' as this fits my ex perfectly.

@MyVisionsComeFromSoup

Yeah, that sounds a lot like it. One example is that he's convinced she completely pulled the rug from under his feet regarding the split, gave him no time to try and do better etc. In truth he'd done something repeatedly and told him the next time would be the last. It was. He's adamant and seemingly believes to the depth of his soul he never got the warning.

Also with the external factors-other person thing. He still believes they're perfect together, were meant for each other (although has accepted it's never going to happen) - if only she'd change completely in one or two ways that seem completely logical to him but would actually make her a different person. He doesn't see it that way though, just that what he thinks she should be is the 'true' her and these aspects of her are faulty and she should have fixed them.

Isn’t this most of us? We all generally believe our own version of the truth, it’s why there’s the saying that there are three sides to every argument.

I really wouldn’t waste any headspace on this. If you invest energy in any part of it just make if supporting your partner if she asks for it.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3610570-Gaslighting-or-bad-memory

@tentosix That all rings true from what she's said but to a lesser extent. He's actually good friends with her sister still and that's the only family member he tried to badmouth her to (although more in a 'why won't she see her faults' way than a nasty 'what a bitch way')
Her sister made it clear that any future friendship was 100% dependent on him never saying another bad word about her.

He had anger issues but she never felt threatened.

He would drink every Tuesday night with a bunch of old boys who live locally. They were all very 'woe is me' and I think reinforced a lot of each other's thoughts, true or not. Apparently looking to the earth and heavens for something to blame for the many issues that were probably caused by their shared alcoholism.

There's a difference between looking to excuse bad decisions and poor behaviour and looking to understand it. I read you as trying to understand him not excuse him.

You said in your OP that life hadn't been kind to him. Trauma affects brain structure and function, causing problems with the amygdala (emotional regulation) and the Pre- frontal cortex (decision making, understanding consequences). It's very easy to label people narcissists but more often than not their behaviours are unhealthy, learned and deeply entrenched coping mechanism.

[quote NewLevelsOfTiredness]@MyVisionsComeFromSoup

Yeah, that sounds a lot like it. One example is that he's convinced she completely pulled the rug from under his feet regarding the split, gave him no time to try and do better etc. In truth he'd done something repeatedly and told him the next time would be the last. It was. He's adamant and seemingly believes to the depth of his soul he never got the warning.

Also with the external factors-other person thing. He still believes they're perfect together, were meant for each other (although has accepted it's never going to happen) - if only she'd change completely in one or two ways that seem completely logical to him but would actually make her a different person. He doesn't see it that way though, just that what he thinks she should be is the 'true' her and these aspects of her are faulty and she should have fixed them.[/quote]
yes, that's t exactly with exH - if I would only do a/b/c thing and not do x/y/z thing, it would all be happy families for ever. And generally the things I should/shouldn't do are things that would benefit him/make him happy, and if he is happy, then I should be happy too, with no concept of my having independent thought about what might make me happy.

And it's been really helpful to discover that quite often people have just been agreeing with him to his face, when he tries to explain how I haven't put any effort into sorting things out, and so he was forced to start divorce proceedings, my solicitor was professional enough to almost stop herself rolling her eyes when she read his list of unreasonable behaviour .

Comtesse - I agree that we all do this to a certain extent, but some people do seem to take it much further. ExH is totally convinced he read bedtime stories every single night to all our DC until they were at least 8, which definitely didn't happen, but he won't budge on that, whereas I was totally shocked to discover this week that although I thought I knew which day of the week each DC was born on, turns out I was wrong for 2 out of the 3. But I'm not insisting that the calendar is wrong, that DC3 is just trying to trip me up and should stop going on about it, just so that I can keep it in my head that they were born on the day I thought they were (I do know the date, was just totally convinced that it was a particular day of the week, I'm not that bad a mother!)

Ultimately though, knowing why someone thinks the way they do, doesn't help much, if you can't deal with it, you need to stop being involved with them (or at least giving it headspace).

Ultimately though, knowing why someone thinks the way they do, doesn't help much, if you can't deal with it, you need to stop being involved with them (or at least giving it headspace).

I love trying to understand what makes people tick. But this 👆 is spot on. Ultimately knowing that you have zero control of another person's behaviour is liberating, you just stop trying and can walk away unburdened.

@Daydrambeliever

There's a difference between looking to excuse bad decisions and poor behaviour and looking to understand it. I read you as trying to understand him not excuse him.

You said in your OP that life hadn't been kind to him. Trauma affects brain structure and function, causing problems with the amygdala (emotional regulation) and the Pre- frontal cortex (decision making, understanding consequences). It's very easy to label people narcissists but more often than not their behaviours are unhealthy, learned and deeply entrenched coping mechanism.

Thanks, that's it. It's in the best interests of the kids, at least, that he and I get along. The eldest (11) especially has challenges and due to the lockdown situation I've been heavily involved in supporting her. We attend meetings at the school about this together, the three of us. I think we all add something, and it works.

So I perhaps have more involvement with him than is typical in our situation. And yes, I have sympathy. My life and childhood especially has involved a lot more warmth, love and general advantages than his. He has sort help, and been shifted around from department to department because "they can't help him with this until someone else works with him on that.."

If he'd ever hit my partner, or the kids, or shown other signs of intentional abuse, it would entirely different.

I should stress again also that my partner is entirely onboard with this - she's always presented a fair and complete picture of him, the good with the bad.

MyVisionsComeFromSoup I just had to check your username to make sure you had written your first post and that I hasn't done it and forgotten about it. This was my life too. We’re seperated now too. Its awful isnt it because, on paper, they are good dads and partners, but in reality this behaviour destroys the lives of people around them. You have my sympathy.

I honestly believe that people with ADHD experience the world differently. It can be profound sometimes. Everything you’ve written here resonates so strongly with me in relation to my ADHD DH. It’s exhausting but unfixable and utterly miserable for the person with ADHD too.

There are a few different ways of handling Shame, hurt yourself (that's my default), hurt others, avoidance and another one I forget. It's a pretty strong defense mechanism, "I shouldn't feel ashamed YOU should feel ashamed". We are mostly all woefully under-prepared to deal with shame. I know a lot of my ex's behaviour was to protect him from feelings of shame by gaining a sense of power. That's where it gets murky because I felt sorry for him, he was in pain and stayed much longer than I should have.