If you have to ask "where is it going?" It's doomed?

[Stockholmvillage]

My friend and I had a bit of a disagreement. I see that I was pretty blunt but she keeps getting upset over men.
I've been honest and told her I think the guy she's currently seeing isn't good enough (big mistake opening my big mouth).

My friend is convinced he wants a relationship so is going to ask him what he wants and where their relationship is heading. I said if you have to ask you've got your answer.

My fear for her is that he'll say what she wants to hear and then carry on using her.

Am I being way too harsh?! I'm now thinking I've been too blunt with her but I don't think I'm a good friend if I just say it's all fine.
So now I don't know what to say to her or should I back track?
She gets so hurt and involved with useless men I think I've been worn down and I have zero filter.

I disagree that if you have to ask, you've got your answer. Someone has to ask, eventually. Otherwise how can you be sure you're on the same page? Exclusive? In an actual relationship? Both want to get married? Communication is a good thing. I wouldn't want to invest weeks and months into something not knowing where things were heading.

Anyway it sounds like you're frustrated with your friend's repetitive and relentless discussions around drama and relationships so I would take a step back honestly before you end up damaging the friendship. If you're worn down by it stop allowing her to talk it through with you, you're making the choice to be her sounding board. If she wants to raise her relationship issues you can change the subject and be non-committal. A simple 'ah, glad it's going well!' or 'hmm, sounds tricky' is fine. You can decide whether you're happy to keep listening but just cba to contribute back, or whether you'd like to avoid the topic altogether for now or for good.

Another approach is being direct: 'friend, I love you and love being your friend. I'm a little worn out by talking about relationships so much so I'd like to talk about other things for a while, is that okay with you?'

You might lose the friendship but it sounds like you're heading to a place where things are getting a bit sketchy anyway. May as well try to salvage it.

Thanks @ChangePart1 some excellent points. It's hard when you're in the middle of it.
I suppose the way I see it is she's asking for clarity when I know (she knows) she already had her answer. He's not committed and lets her down all the time.
He makes excuses to.meet her friends and she's not be introduced to his.
So my point is why does she need an answer when he's telling her loud and clear.

You're absolutely right. I'm totally worn down by it.
It's always the same. She chases and pursues men who show little interest, she doesn't get to know them but sleeps with them because she thinks that equates to a relationship.
She then spends months being used and then ghosted.

I need to step back. I don't think my opinion helps her.

I have been in your position. So much so that I feel like we know the same person!! Step back from the dating discussions. If she is anything like my friend she would want to constantly discuss and analyze every action every text every signal. So it would be difficult to stay away from the subject but you should just stop engaging in the topic. She would be so entrenched in the euphoria of this man that she would never believe you mean well. Let her make her own mistakes.

Sad really.

@Stockholmvillage

Thanks *@ChangePart1* some excellent points. It's hard when you're in the middle of it. I suppose the way I see it is she's asking for clarity when I know (she knows) she already had her answer. He's not committed and lets her down all the time. He makes excuses to.meet her friends and she's not be introduced to his. So my point is why does she need an answer when he's telling her loud and clear.

You're absolutely right. I'm totally worn down by it.
It's always the same. She chases and pursues men who show little interest, she doesn't get to know them but sleeps with them because she thinks that equates to a relationship.
She then spends months being used and then ghosted.

I need to step back. I don't think my opinion helps her.

I think the issue here is you, not your friend. You say that you're totally worn down by her. Where are your boundaries here? Why do you feel the need to save her from herself? Take a giant step back and let her deal with her own relationship patterns. Refuse to discuss her relationships with her after you've given your (asked for) opinion. Just say we've already discussed this, I don't have anything to add to what I've already said, I hope it works out for you. If she doesn't respect that, then you have a friend on your hands who doesn't respect your boundaries. Feeling overwhelmed with someone else and their issues, should give you a red alert that your boundaries are too porous.

@AnaViaSalamanca it's SO frustrating isn't it.
I'm so bored of it. She's an intelligent woman who literally chases men until they give in her last relationship she laughed about having to jump on him to get a kiss. She then says she has issues and baggage when they're not giving her what she wants. She's never actually dated a guy who has taken her on a date it's all late night booty calls.

@maskface212 I see what you're saying and you're right. I don't think the boundaries thing has occured to me until recently where 'bad luck'in her dating life has actually become an issue and is all consuming.
Once is bad enough then you learn from it but I've realised 6 men later and she's still repeating the same mistakes.
I definitely will step back and not engage.
I find it tricky when, after making it so clear what I think, she'll message saying she now doesn't know where she stands
Maybe I just won't reply to anything bloke related.

I just don't know why you'd waste energy on men who literally have never shown any interest.

Generally speaking, if I've had to ask a guy first where things are headed (and I'm not a shy person so have no problem bringing up the topic) it's usually turned out they were just timewasters. If you're two months in and they aren't chomping at the but for exclusivity, chances are they are just stringing you along. I would never discourage a woman from asking, however I would agree that if she has to ask...its not looking good.

*at the bit

Lol

@maskface212 is right, OP -- the issue is with your boundaries. You can't change someone else's behaviour, but you can change your own responses or exposure to it. Just say you've already said everything you wanted to say on the issue previously, and would appreciate a change of subject.

Six? I told my DF after two useless relationships, I wasn't answering any of her relationship questions anymore.

Funnily enough, our friendship dwindled not long afterwards. She was someone who thrived on the drama. That was a relationship to her, all hard work and headaches.

Thanks @Umberellatheweatha you're totally right. I do wish I hadn't said anything as really asking would at least give her a bit of control. She's been seeing him for 3 months and she thinks they need to spend more time together but I think he's showing her exactly who he is....non committal, flakey and he's not taken her on a date once.

@OodieWoodie yep I do think it might bring a wedge between us if I say enough is enough. I find it really childish if I'm being honest and I kinda feel like she needs to grow up.

But yeah I need to have some boundaries

I don't know about this. I mean, the purpose of a friend is to be a friend isn't it. The rough and the smooth. So yes you can absolutely explain that you've got second hand relationship chat fatigue and it would be good to change the subject but voicing judgement of the situation (unless your opinion is solicited) ? No. Friends don't do that. Parents do that, strangers on MN do that. But friends have your back, even when you're at your worst

This sounds more frenemies than friends. But then we are women.

Hahahaha not at all frenemies. We've been friends for decades. We are very close, perhaps too close so I don't want to upset her but also, after years she needs a bit of advice and tough love. But yep I probably should've stepped back

@Gilda152 sometime it's just one of those situations that you see the car crash in slow motion

I dont get these people at all. I always ask first few days into meeting someone what are you looking for. Then no confusion lol

Step back and refuse to get into discussions about her dating life. If she brings it up, just acknowledge it without offering any of your own opinions on anything, then change the subject. Keep doing it until she gets the picture. People like your friend thrive on making bad decisions and the drama it creates. They get an emotional kick out of it (a lot of the time it's subconscious on their part). They use friends like you who are kind and empathetic listeners as emotional dumpsters to offload their self created problems onto, with no care of the effect on you. Been there, done that.

They'll also be the same ones lamenting "where are all the good men???!!" down the line (if they're not already moaning!).

The funny thing is when you stop engaging, she will eventually start taking responsibility for her own actions as she wont been able to enjoy offloading drama onto someone else.

People like your friend thrive on making bad decisions and the drama it creates

Really? Nah.

I absolutely can't stand the pious " making bad decisions" trope.

Everyone has an arena where they battle their inner demons. For some people it is their career, for others it will be their weight, for many, it is relationships.
I spent my whole childhood being verbally abused, neglected and resented. It's taken me a long time to figure out my worth, but I'm grateful I have.
The pace that someone learns their life lessons is not yours to decide, or judge.

However- of course it is hard to watch, and hard to ' go along with'. Perhaps instead of judging her, you could suggest counselling to address why she is prepared to accept so little.

@spotcheck I love your response!

@spotcheck sorry to hear of your past and I can see you've been triggered because of it but there's nothing "pious" about stating when people are objectively making wrong decisions. Like I said in my post, there's often a subconscious driver to do this.

Also, regardless of why that friend is choosing these wrong men, it's not the other friend's responsibility to be an emotional dumpster or punchbag for her. People like the OP who are kind, empathetic and care deeply about the hurt the friend goes through, will be emotionally drained by the relentless offloading, drama and bad consequences. The friend in question has also started to unfairly turn against OP too, simply because OP is trying to look out for her! This isn't emotionally healthy for the OP so she needs to step back somewhat and protect herself too. The friend is not respecting the OP's own needs.

The OP (and anyone else in her situation) has to have proper boundaries in place because their own emotional health is no less important than the person continually picking the crappy men. Like I said, stepping back and stopping functioning as their emotional dustbin is often the trigger that leads such people to actually seek the counselling or whatever professional help they need to start working through their issues properly.

People often make decisions based on what they believe they deserve - nothing objective about it.

I'm certainly not saying that OP should just be there as an emotional salve- not at all, and of course boundaries need to be put in place.

What I was reacting to is the judgement of the friend.

What I was reacting to is the judgement of the friend what a weird statement to make.
Yes, of course I'm judgemental, come on now we're all judgmental when it comes to years of a friend creating unnecessary drama. I'm not a dumping ground tbh.

I'm judgemental because after years of drama and ridiculous 'relationships' my friend is doing it again.

I've been honest with her because at this stage I had no choice.

To constantly say she's right to pursue non committal relationships that leave her devastated everytime is being a crappy friend.
In fact I wasn't judgemental I just queried a few of her statements.

So she said she had 'baggage' and that's why he wasn't committing. So I asked her what baggage do you have that means he's non committal?

She also said she had anxiety and this was why she was getting obsessed with him. Again I said I've known you for decades and you've never had anxiety so surely he's causing some stress.
I stand by my belief that if you need to ask where it's going it's not going anywhere.

After years of listening and being kind, understanding etc I've realised my friend is in the habit of looking for drama and instability and then using her friends to break down everything exhausting detail over and over again.
In the last week I haven't heard anything regarding this new bloke or drama so I'm actually pleased I was honest with her.
I've said my bit, it came from a good place and I've got my boundaries.

And regardless of your past you can't use it as an excuse all your adult life to create drama and instability and then cry about it.

@Stockholmvillage

And regardless of your past you can't use it as an excuse all your adult life to create drama and instability and then cry about it.

Exactly right. We all have free will, and as grown adults we all have to take responsibility for our actions at some point.