NC MIL back in touch

[Whitelanding]

My MIL (who I suspect is a narcissist) cut US off 2.5 years ago after she went ballistic at Christmas over when we met up. Lies and outrageous statements about me, called me a b*tch. It was the final straw for us as we'd been considering cutting her off for some time but hadn't out of trying to give her chances to redeem herself. I don't believe she has ever liked me although we did at one point live with her! I can see through her charms of the early days now and that she was only ever trying to pull us closer to manipulate. Over the past 9 years that DH and I have been together she has made everything about her eg. The day we got engaged she went beserk at dh for not telling her he was about to propose but that his gran knew as she helped with the ring design. She made the entire situation about herself and her flying monkey daughter (SIL) has always been ready to swoop in and assist her. On our wedding day she cried because DH "didn't talk about her enough in his speech". When I was pregnant she fell out with me for asking her to rearrange seeing us as she was going to be 2 hours late and I was tired. So many other examples but they are just a few. Most everyday events end up being huge dramas from her and she sucks the energy out of us. She is a victim of life and is forever ill.

She's done some weird stuff since we went nc like sending husband a birthday card "apologising" but following the word sorry with how hard a time she is having, she's a different person now with a short temper (no Change there) and doesn't want to live anymore blah blah basically excusing herself not taking any responsibility and a random photo of his childhood. We tried to keep SIL relationship separate but she can't help herself getting involved and refused to see us at Christmas over the situation as she thinks we are being unfair because "mum's apologised". We have 2 DC 1 and 3 and she now hasn't seen our eldest since he was 1 months and never our youngest (her choice.).

Last week she sent me a text saying she is sorry and misses seeing me. That there's no expectation but she wanted to apologise. No specifics of what exactly for. DH is keen to use this as an opportunity to rekindle things in hopes that "she's changed" (we have heard that she is having counselling). He'd like to meet her alone just the two of them and listen to what she has to say. The whole situation has erupted a mountain of anxiety of me as the last 2.5 years have been relatively stress free in terms of her, with just a few incidents with SIL sticking her oar in and defending her mum. DH used to dread seeing her and be emotionally exhausted afterwards, he fekt obligated to see her and that each time we did that it bought us another couple of months before we had to see her again. But she's his mum, I understand he wants a decent relationship with his mum but I am so reluctant about the entire thing and I think he is in cloud cuckoo land thinking that she will have changed to the point of us having a semi normal relationship.

I feel my options are (assuming his meet goes well and at SOME POINT if she behaves herself for a significant period of time that she is introduced to our DC) to either continue to have nothing to do with her or to tolerate her in the presence of my children. I do not trust her to be with my DC and DH without me as she is extremely manipulative and dh does not always recognise it. He is definitely only half way out of the fog.

What shall I do here?! I'm certainly not replying to her directly. I told DH as much when she cut us off that absolutely no communication was ever to go through me again. But I'm not the only person to consider. I'm horrified at the thought of introducing her to my DC who she will no doubt play the adoring grandma to but the drip of poison wouldn't take long to start.

I just need to offload this and ask if anyone has any suggestions. I am assume that if he decides to contact her then I just let him meet her and see how she is and go from there? In an ideal world he would read books on children of narcissistic parents but I think he thinks I'm ott in this suspicion. I'm also wary of confusing my children if we one day introduce her to them, only to potentially stop contact.

Apologies for all the typos. Writing this holding a wriggling sleepy baby.

I should add, she is divorced and has never had another partner. We get on well with FIL and his wife of 20 years (much to MIL disgust because DHs dad "never did anything for him"...) Unfortunately some info has been leaked from FIL to SIL in the past although this has now been clarified by DH that FIL is not to talk about us to SIL.

What you are describing here from this person is hoovering behaviour and its designed to draw you back in. Do not fall for such trickery.

Ignore her message and block her from being able to contact any of your family. She has not changed and she is still the same person she ever was. Continue to have nothing to do with her and furthermore do not subject your children to her either. If this person is too toxic/difficult or otherwise too batshit crackers for you to at all deal with, its the same deal for your children too. Keep them away from his mother and her daughter at all costs.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles and it is likely here your DH is the scapegoat for all their inherent ills. His sister is more likely here to be the golden child in this scenario and indeed it appears so.

It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist and your DH only perhaps wants to try again with her because he has been trained by her to put her needs first with his dead last. He still holds onto this fiction that she has somehow changed but sadly she has not and never will do so. His own inertia when it comes to his mother and sister along with his fear, obligation and guilt continue to hurt him as much as you people.

BTW you do not mention FIL in all this; is he at all present in your lives?.

Cross posted.

Not at all surprised to see that she is divorced, women like your MIL cannot do relationships at all so the men in their lives are either discarded or are as narcissistic as they are.

Glad to read that FIL has been firmly told not to pass on any information to SIL.

Your MIL broke your own self imposed boundary by going through you; these people dislike boundaries and actually rail against them hugely.

Thanks Atilla, I've been a lurker on some of the stately homes threads on and off over the years and am aware of some of the lingo, so yes his sister is absolutely the golden child and DH has always been the scapegoat. He has said before that he feels it's only his dad who has ever loved him unconditionally. There has always been a resentment with his mother.

Whilst I agree completely with your suggestions in an ideal world, I cannot force DH's hand in his choice with his mother (and potentially with our children!?) This is where I am having difficulty as I know she won't have changed (or if she has somehow had a moment of realisation that it won't be a significant enough change for us to be in contact) but DH feels that this is an opener as "we always said she needs to apologise" and whilst he recognises that the apology needs more in terms of how she has changed and how history won't repeat itself, he asks how this could happen if we don't open the door to this possibility.

She has not apologised at all; its the same old non apology and now she has tried to go through you seeing as her previous approach was unsuccessful.

The narcissist use apologies the same way they use everything else, as a way to control people. The most important thing for a narcissist is how they appear to others, and apologizing makes them look compassionate.

If you don’t accept the narcissist’s apology, they’ll keep on apologizing until you finally give in and take it. A narcissist would rather keep on apologizing than change their behaviour or find out what it is which would make you forgive them. Narcissists don’t want to do any extra work or do any self-examination if they can avoid it. Don’t be fooled by a narcissist’s apology.

It doesn’t matter if a narcissist apologizes once or ten times — they didn’t learn their lesson, and they’re not sorry. Their only goal is to make others think they’re remorseful so they can reclaim their place as master manipulators.

@AttilaTheMeerkat always gives sound advice.

You are right that you cannot tell DH what to do. Maybe ask him what are his reasons for wanting to see her?... FOG, duty and the hope that she has changed into a wonderful mum who will validate him? He needs to learn to let go of that hope.

For yourself you are absolutely not obliged to have contact. I wouldn't.

With the children I think you need to push that down the road months or years. You know how toxic she is and you have both benefited from NC. You are perfectly within your rights to protect your children. Solid evidence of positive change, and a lessening of the threat of damage would be needed before you and DH agreed to limited, supervised, contact.

Would he ever consider therapy for himself or at least reading more about such dysfunctional family structures?. Sadly for you people he may not change and so remains stuck.

By keeping your own self and your kids away from his mother and Golden Child sister (itself a role not without price either but she remains unaware of that) you are protecting yourselves from Bad Things. Family are not binding.

It baffles me how many qualified psychologists we have on this group who can give advice based on what will of course be a biased viewpoint no matter how much a person tries tone neutral, despite not knowing background, history or individual differences.
And it always seems to be so very catastrophic as well.
OP talk to your husband, not a bunch of random strangers that don't have to live with the consequences of your actions

I think he should read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward. I know you said that he doesnt see it as that. How would you both feel about the following arrangement: he reads the book, and if he still wants to see his DM then you will support but not participate.

Thanks all for your replies. Sorry had a busy Sunday so just replying now.

@AttilaTheMeerkat yes I think I could get him to do some reading, likely together as he struggles taking things in himself. He had therapy last year for a separate issue and they touched on his mother, I was a little disappointed he didn't want to delve deeper there.

@tobedtoMNandfart I think this is what I was coming on to ask really, advice on how to talk to him about it without going off the handle. So asking him what he wants/expects from any rekindling and reminding what is realistic. You've worded it well there for me to use with DH and me being expected to get over it is what's worrying me. You don't completely cut off your own son, DIL and GC then just walk back into their lives like it was nothing. And I think my DH doesn't seem to realise quite how serious this is, he just wants ti play happy families and (I think) sees me wanting to make sure everything is absolutely crystal clear from the off is fussing. Obviously it's NOT but he doesn't see things clearly. I will add to his credit that he was put her in her place many times which has ultimately led to this point where she said she'd "rather have nothing than scraps" because she said she doesn't see us or DS enough (not once asked to see him herself though). DH has also said that she would never be allowed unsupervised contact with DC.

@baileys6904 I'm looking for some support and advice in talking about a very difficult and emotive subject with my DH. We have and will continue to discuss this, but I need some help with the wording at times and other POV.

@StrictlyAFemaleFemale Thank you for the book recommendation, I will talk to DH and make this a suggestion to read together.

I guess I need to have another sit down and chat with DH about it all and probe a bit further before he contacts MIL so we are clear on what is the aim, what are his expectations, what happens if they aren't met etc etc

Just make it clear. "DH - I understand you want her to become the mother you never had, but I am not subjecting myself to it again. I am happy for you to have a relationship with your Mother, but the kids and I will not be for now. We will revisit in 2 years when we see how her behaviour is long term."

Really excellent advice above.

Your husband indeed wants to play happy family's in complete denial of his reality, which is HIS choice.

What he doesn't get to decide is to drag you and your children back into his family shit show.

Your children are young and need protection from this woman who ye both know does not behave well.

@glitterfarts has given you a perfect response to your husband.

Your children will not be canon fodder for his mother to experiment on.

They need one strong clear headed parent.

It has to be you.

Just because he wants everything to be fine doesn't mean it can be.

Your children's childhood is not going to be destabilised by this unstable woman.

Focus on FIL and his wife for grandparents.

if I were your husband I'd agree to meet her on his own with a few questions related to how she thought he would feel.

In order to see if she's gained some self-awareness recently get your husband to ask her ''how did you think I would feel when you .............?'' and no doubt she will start with justifications. Repeat the question ''I see, but how did you think I would feel when you x, y or z'' and then she might talk about how she felt, and then try a third time, ''so what I'm hearing is that you felt left out, how did you think I would feel when you cried on a day that was supposed to be happy and important to me?''

You'll quickly see if there is any capability for self-reflection.

I tried this on my mother. I asked her how she thought I would feel when she put me sitting next to two women I'd asked her twice not to seat me next to. She couldn't do it. She went on about how everbody else was happy for her. I steered her back to the question. She then talked about fire exits. I steered her back to the question again, how did you think I would feel when you........ and she just couldn't do it. She had nothing.

So it's a good exercise to see where the maybe-narcissist is.

@baileys6904 what a spectacularly unsympathetic post.
No one is claiming to be qualified psychologists. Sadly many of us ARE survivors of damaging family environments. If you don't understand that then trust me you are the lucky one.

@tobedtomnandfart

Yes many of us are. You have no idea on my journey through life.
Which is my point. Nobody knows someone else's history or experience however people on here feel confident throwing out labels and relationship damaging advice without any real thought to the real life consequence. The fact someone can pitch a few long words in to a post doesn't mean they know what they are talking about, only that they talk a mean game. However some people that are struggling will just follow them faithfully and it's them has to deal with the results.

I’d let your husband see her on his own and then with time the children.

I don’t think you need to see her again tbh. She will never like or accept you. Some MIL are just like that, best thing you can do is keep away from her and let your husband/children have a relationship.

[quote baileys6904]@tobedtomnandfart

Yes many of us are. You have no idea on my journey through life.
Which is my point. Nobody knows someone else's history or experience however people on here feel confident throwing out labels and relationship damaging advice without any real thought to the real life consequence. The fact someone can pitch a few long words in to a post doesn't mean they know what they are talking about, only that they talk a mean game. However some people that are struggling will just follow them faithfully and it's them has to deal with the results.[/quote]
I hear you, and to a certain extent agree.

My point is where is your support and advice for the OP? After all that is what she came here for...

Thanks again for your contributions all.

@glitterfarts that's so helpful, thank you. I find it very hard not to go off on one. It's difficult to remember all the instances over the years to remind DH of but staying rational is so important. I also feel like I am being unreasonable if I say no to the children (eventually) seeing her, like can I actually do that?! Obviously I see her as a very damaging influence but DH is more susceptible to her.

I've actually been considering suggesting some sort of counselling or therapy for us both together in relation to her. In hopes it may help my husband realise the gravity of the situation instead of it just coming from me.

@billy1966

Your words made me feel like I can be strong and level headed speaking about this, so thank you.

@Selkie1961 sorry about your mother. I can well imagine a conversation with MIL going the same way so it's a great way of probing to find out more.

@Guavafish I don't mind husband seeing her without me but her seeing my children without me present is not something I'm comfortable with, mainly because DH is still somewhat in the FOG and doesn't always pick up on her. I feel if she gets to see them without me that would be her ideal as I'm out of the picture and she gets more leeway.

More mulling to do tonight. DH has not brought up the subject again, I'm incredibly stressed with work and our children are sleeping appallingly atm so most nights we get about 20 minutes together to clean up the kitchen and talk before the baby wakes up and then I Have to go to bed so it's a fraught time anyway atm

OP,

It is perfectly reasonable for you to tell your husband that you are carrying as much stress as you can at the moment and you are NOT prepared to add his mother's inevitable drama into the mix.

You need to be calm but absolutely resolute.
It's NOT happening.

You are not going to be coerced by him when you are under huge pressure at home and at work with little sleep, into doing something that is not in yours or your children's best interests.

I mean this kindly OP, but a good man will accept that and not force you to agree to something that you don't want.

If he was to try and force you, this would imply that his mother's demands come ahead of his wife and children and that would be a very serious statement for him to make.

Just because she has contacted ye does NOT mean you have to accept the contact.

We really see the character of a person IMO when we say NO.

If you say NO to your husband and he doesn't accept that, you will need to think about that too.

He needs to know that there could be unexpected consequences to him not respecting your position and trying to over ride your decision.

If he wishes to see her that is HIS choice but she is not seeing the children without you there, and you have no wish to be in her company.

@billy1966 Thank you thank you thank you!

I will be reading your post repeatedly to myself over the coming days.

I am currently so utterly exhausted that I'm not feeling as strong as usual.

I did mention to him tonight the situation with MIL and that I just can't deal with that now. His response was that that's absolutely understandable, let's put it to the side for now we don't need to do anything. I will see and think very carefully about how he responds when we bring this up again.

I am SO grateful. I'm far more articulate than I must come across on here I just haven't the brain capacity atm!

There is nothing wrong with your articulation OP.

You're shattered from work, children and lack of sleep.

Quite enough for anyone!

Make NO apologies for telling him straight...

"I'm NOT dealing with this now"
"I'm NOT being forced to think about something I don't want to think about.

"I'm NOT being rushed into something that I don't want to do and will regret".

I'm NOT going to be made feel guilty that I don't want to deal with your mother".

Tell him that your priority is getting through everyday in one piece and surviving it.

If he doesn't get that and have your back fully, his bloody mother will be the least of his problems.😁

Are you being too bright and cheerful?
Let him see a bit of what "cranky whitelanding" looks like.🤨

Plainly speaking he needs to be more afraid of pissing you off than her.

Personally I wouldn't want her near my children,but then I don't think anyone nasty and batshit is essential to any child's life, no matter if they are blood relatives.

You have this.
Keep posting.👍